Author Topic: To tab or not to tab?  (Read 7216 times)

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Offline osageorange

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To tab or not to tab?
« on: March 12, 2011, 11:23:09 PM »
I have a CzechPoint VZ58 that runs perfectly. It came from CzechPoint with a tabbed bolt carrier. I just bought an ambidextrous bolt carrier from Neit Arms, but noticed it was not tabbed. Since I value the reliability of this rifle, should I have a tab mig welded to it so I never experience the failure to fire ?gremlin?? I know there are simpler fixes for this but tabbing seems to be foolproof. The replacement carriers CzechPoint sells all have them. If I am entering 3-gun competitions this year I will need this rifle to be 100% reliable.

Some owners have experienced the failure to fire gremlin after several hundred or even thousands of rounds. It is funny that the Czech military did not update the carriers after decades of use. Upon looking up the Lightning Bolt carriers by Colorado Shooting Sports, I noticed they too were tabless.

Some people use tabless carriers and never get the gremlin. So there is nothing wrong with Neit Arms or Colorado Shooting Sportsselling untabbed carriers, and I am not implying that there is. After all, the Czech military uses untabbed carriers. Still, I would always worry about the gremlin appearing when I least expected it and really needed the weapon to fire.

Is anybody currently offering tabbing services and if so, how much do they charge?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 02:29:10 PM by osageorange »

Offline rocinante

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Re: To tab or not to tab?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2011, 08:37:02 AM »
Quote
I will need this rifle to be 100% reliable

So I guess the answer is yes you need the tab.

Is the tab needed because the gun is changed to a semi auto only mode with a different trigger group part or two?

Offline osageorange

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Re: To tab or not to tab?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2011, 03:07:10 PM »
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Is the tab needed because the gun is changed to a semi auto only mode with a different trigger group part or two?

No, it has more to do with a slight shift in trigger components, slight variances in them due to fit or wear, and to flexing of the trigger mechanism feather.  Basically, the fire control group fails to reset correctly when the bolt carrier slides to the rear of the receiver, resulting in a misfire and /or jam. It may be remedied by flexing or shimming the trigger mechanism feather upwards or figuring out how to fix the amount of shift or wear in the fire control group. The tab seems like a more solid and sure method of avoiding the situation, whereas the shimming of the trigger mechanism feather with a small spring underneath it could be less permanent. Various other fixes have also been used, but involve filing the striker or trigger components, which I would not consider doing myself because they could be unsafe.

The tab is a piece of metal that is mig welded onto the bottom of the bolt carrier, which ensures that the disconnector resets, because it hits it when it slides backwards. You can see the tab on this bolt carrier CzechPoint sells. It is the rectangular metal piece on the right hand side of the photo. You may have to compare the photo to your own bolt carrier to see the tab welds.

http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/spare-parts-and-accessories/vz-58-parts-and-accessories/bolt-carrier/

I had followed the gremlin subject with interest for about a year on the canadiangunnutz forum, just in case I ever had to deal with it personally. It seemed there was a higher incidence of gremlins on the Canadian VZ58?s than those in the US and they were working on ways to address it. It wasn?t until I purchased an aftermarket bolt carrier from Neit Arms that I noticed how it differed slightly from the CzechPoint carrier. In other words, I had not noticed that CzechPoint had permanently attached a tab to their carrier before assembling my rifle and had always assumed the rifle was constructed of stock components entirely. I had been waiting to see if the gremlin would somehow appear, but it was always highly unlikely due to the tab.

The Canadians cannot import the CzechPoint pre-tabbed bolt carriers from the US by mail, but can add tabs to their own carriers or find other ways to fix the problem. Some people have offered the tabbing service in Canada, but not in the US that I know of. I don?t know if Century or Ohio Ordnance uses tabbed carriers, but regular kit builds would not, because the bolt carrier is in a stock configuration.

I don?t have a clue how the military units have dealt with this problem before. Maybe the armorers and soldiers make a practice of pre-bending the trigger mechanism feather as part of regular maintenance. I do not know who first invented the tabbing fix or when either, but it seems to work. While I do feel that I am being somewhat paranoid about this, but would never want my weapon to misfire when I needed it to fire, and the means to avoid it are available.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 10:52:24 PM by osageorange »

Offline ObiWanBonJovi

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Re: To tab or not to tab?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 08:40:05 PM »
The tab is needed on any rifle without an autosear.  F/A rifels do no need them.  I will tab for $15 plus return shipping ($5.30 flat rate box).  The problem is due to disconnector timing.  an untabbed carrier does not hit disconnector on the way forward until after the striker has already crossed the sear, so if for some reason the disconnector reconnects with the sear after the carrier crosses it in its rearward travel(trigger manipulation can cause this or simply the inertia from the sear can swing it far enough to reconnect),it will stay connected and the sear will remain released until it is too late and the striker follows.  On a F/A rifle the autosear will hold the striker until the carrier disconnects again so there can be no follow.  All the tab does is fix the timing issue on semi autos.  I personally cannot imagine owning a semi vz58 without the tab, and do not feel that any semi vz58 without one can be considered more than just a toy, as it is certainly not reliable enough to be used as a weapon. 
try this with your tabbed and then not tabbed carrier:
hold carrier to the rear of rifle, press and hold trigger, release carrier.
You will find the tabbed carrier will remain cocked, while the untabbed will follow 100% of the time.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 08:45:48 PM by ObiWanBonJovi »

Offline osageorange

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Re: To tab or not to tab?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 09:31:41 PM »
ObiWanBonJovi,

Thanks for the explanation. I will soon be sending you my new ambi carrier to be tabbed. I'll be in touch.