Author Topic: Installing hard sear.  (Read 5020 times)

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Offline Fordzilla

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2005, 12:58:44 PM »
I want to thank Jim for taking the time to provide such useful and detailed information about the workings of these guns.  I also would like to thank Jim again for his guidance and assistance over the phone in getting my gun to cycle HP ammo.
   I've known quite a few gunsmiths, and have never known one to take so much time to help others understand their arms and get them running right. (other than one who has been a close friend for over 17 years)
   Most smiths are rather gruff, opinionated types with "no time" to waste explaining everything to the "ignorant". (not intended as a slam to smiths, just seems to be the personality type that gravitates toward this type of work) I know of at least one who is a legend in his own mind, and has stated publicly that his "secrets" about tuning the 1911 will die with him, rather than be passed on to those unable to figure them out on their own.
   Jim, other than being a true gun/shooting enthusiast, comes across as being very interested in seeing others enjoy the world of shooting, and enjoy their guns' performance to their fullest potential.
   Thanks for the patience and generosity with your knowledge, Jim.

Walt-Sherrill

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2005, 05:30:02 PM »
Jim's support of shooters, here (and on other forums) is very welcome.  He fits in here, where we try to be helpful.  He and 1911Tuner (a fellow on The High Road) are unique among the folks who participate on the various gun forums -- and very helpful to newbies and long-time shooters, alike.

Hopefully, all of you folks will keep Jim in mind and first on your list when it comes times to think about gunsmithing services that can't be provided locally.

BRASMAN

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2005, 10:52:27 PM »
So how similar is my 10MM witness to my CZ 97 as far as the trigger hammer and sear. I know the hammer springs and housing are different but is the rest the same? What I am realy asking is while I am doing a trigger job on my 10mm witness will I be learning about my 97B enough to fit a sear in depending on my ability? Thanks.

Offline Miossi Gun Works

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2005, 11:54:53 AM »
First thank you all for the very kind words about me.

As far as learning on how to fit a hard sear on the CZ from performing a trigger job on the EAA you will not learn a whole lot.  Fitting the oversized sear requires metal removal mostly with a stone in fitting the trigger contact pad and in timing the sear, FPB and guns action it self.  You will learn a lot about the relationship of each item and how they can be altered for the better as the EAA and CZ are very similar.  You will also be more at ease in the disassembly and reassembly.

The hard sear we manufacture can be installed in the EAA guns but requires removal of their FPB as it is different from the CZ FPB and the sear the EAA uses is that of the pre "B" configuration sear.

Jim

Miossi Gun Works LLC
702 Park Dr
Monticello, IA 52310

BRASMAN

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2005, 11:25:35 PM »
Thanks for your help Jim as always your advice is very clear and easy for newbies like me to understand.

Offline Lazarus

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2005, 12:05:03 PM »
I'd like to add a cautionary word or two to this thread because it appears that almost everyone here simply would not possess the experience or understanding necessary to cut a custom sear - let alone replace one.

Firstly, I have nothing at all against someone attempting to make "the better mousetrap".  But when it comes to selling custom fit hammers and sears there is an element of responsibility that enters into the equation.  I don't hear any of that cautionary message coming from the inventor of the better mousetrap.  That said, let me give you my 2 cents worth on why a super hard sear makes no sense on the CZ97b.  

A specific assumption is being made by the by the "inventor", that is not being clearly stated up front.  That assumption is that everyone desires a crisp, clean breaking trigger on their 97.  We all want one of these right?  Nobody likes a creepy trigger, right???

Not so, boys and girls.  I will grant you that if you have the necessary skills to adjust the stock 97b parts for a crisp trigger break - yes, you will probably be left wanting a harder sear.  Yes, in that case your stock sear may not be up to the job.  But the point is that the 97b design does not favor a crisp clean break such as the 1911 is commonly capable of.  Since there is a mechanical leverage component in the 97b design, you are going AGAINST the design intention by adjusting the trigger to feel like a target grade 1911.  In specific mechanical terms, that type of trigger built into the 97b will have very tiny engagement of the hammer and sear.  So small, in fact that the limits of the materials are being tested!  Thus the need for harder parts.  You are truthfully dancing on a pin here - walking a dangerous line with your own safety.  

I'm not saying it can't be done.  I am saying that very few people will have the ability to correctly and safely modify the gun in this way.  Especially so, since the "rolling trigger break" that is characteristic of the 97b is extremely safe.  AND, it can be made extremely smooth and enjoyable to shoot as well.  In the end, what's the point?  Take a stock 97b and simply smooth some of the critical surfaces (smooth, not remove!).  You will be rewarded with a very predictable and safe rolling break that does not come close to testing the limits of the metal parts.  That is just one person's point of view of course.  Think about it, first!

-Lazarus

Offline Miossi Gun Works

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2005, 12:38:08 PM »
The sear alone will not give a hair trigger break, the hammer face and hooks must also be changed in angle and height to achieve this.  Yes fitting the sear is not for the beginner, you must know how the entire action works and where and where not to remove metal.  Once properly fitted you will still have take up on the trigger once you have removed the slack, with an unaltered hammer you will still have about 10 to 20% of the hammer camming left.  The sear and hammer still have 100% engagement so it is not a safety issue.  To achieve the trigger that Lazarus is speaking about you need to finish the work on the hammer, first by changing its face to a neutral angle and secondly by lowering the hammer hooks.

So I must respectfully disagree with Lazarus on this issue to the point that our hard sear alone will give you a 2lbs hair trigger.  Work in other areas is needed to achieve this.

Jim

Miossi Gun Works LLC
702 Park Dr
Monticello, IA 52310


BRASMAN

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2005, 11:56:57 PM »
I think your sear is a great invention Jim and plan on sending my 97B to you some day for instalation. I do not mind taking it apart and polishing things but I do not want to try to make it fit I would rather pay you to do it so I do not end up with a $500 paper weight.

Offline Lazarus

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2005, 09:33:22 AM »
Another point, if I may.  To say that only live fire can exercise and perfect a trigger job is baloney.  We are used to hearing all about how after 5000 rounds a gun will begin to "smooth out" and how the trigger somehow magically begins to work better, etc.  These comments are typically made by people who are ignorant when it comes to proper gunsmithing.  

On the one hand we are asked to believe that only specially made parts will be hard enough to maintain their adjustments (sometimes this is true), but on the other hand we are told to wait while these parts "wear in" to complete the job.  Folks, it is time for a reality check.  A correctly done trigger job on whatever firearm is not an "almost there" proposition.  Either the limits of the materials are being pushed...in which case the adjustment will change over time.  Or else the job is done correctly in the first place and the trigger job stays that way for years and years.  A properly done trigger job has the desired trigger weight and pull characteristics when it leaves the gunsmith's bench.  He will not ask you to bring it back next week to "see how it is coming along".

Once again, the design intention on the 97b was for a rolling break trigger.   The hammer/sear engagement (single action of course) is generous making extra hard parts unnecessary.  The break is smooth and predictable.  And, it is inherently safer (i.e. won't go off unless you pull the trigger) because you have plenty of metal holding the hammer back.
 
That's my extra 2 cents worth.
-Lazarus

Offline Miossi Gun Works

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2005, 02:56:09 PM »
The metallurgy of complete gun is wide ranging.  The frame and slide must be made of mild steel that can withstand the shock of recoil, if made of hard steel it will fracture in a very short time.  The barrel must be able to expand slightly or it will crack or just blow up into shrapnel.  All pivot pins should be hardened in the 40 to 50 C scale due to the amount of wear and force they operate under. Sights should be of softer steel like the slide or they will sheer off.  A hammer, sear and disconnector should be made of harder steel then the rest of the gun as they need to glide off each other, and maintain their shape and critical honed edges. If you use too soft of a steel on the action parts they will deform and change in shape with use and your trigger will change in the feel and break.  High quality action parts should be hammer forged S7 tool steel or higher and should have a hardness of 50 to 60C.  

Take a cheap 1911 and you will find soft action parts, if you rework these parts they will last a few thousand rounds and then the action changes as the soft steel changes.  If you tuned the action to break at 3 lbs with an extra crisp break you will soon have a dangerous gun as the tolerances will not hold and the gun is going to double or worse and be unsafe.  Look at all the high quality after market parts for the 1911; they are all true hard bar stock steel that will hold an edge that will out last the barrel.  They are made that way for a reason, if you want a tuned action that is light and as crisp as a glass rod breaking you have to use the proper type and hardness of steel. Take the stock parts from an Auto Ordnance, rework them and within 5000 rounds you will have a full auto gun, replace the parts with EGW, Wilsons, Bear, Brown or the host of other quality parts on the market and work them to the exact same configuration that you did with the stock parts and they will out last the gun.  They will never change and zero break in is needed.
The same holds true for a Sig Arms pistol, from the factory their sears and hammers are rated at 50C, it is the same from round one to round 1000000.  Look at a S&W revolver, the hammer, sear and boss pins are hardened steel.

Can you get buy with soft parts?  Sure you can but you can not tune them to the degree because you know they will peen and change.  You can tune a good trigger with these but you can not tune an excellent trigger that is on the cutting edge.  CZ parts are so soft that with one pass of a file will cut it, you should not be able to do this to a quality action part, and in fact you can not cut a 55C tool steel with a file without really trying, you need to use a stone to hone the proper geometry onto it.  

True hard hammers and sears do not wear in over time and I personally would never tell a customer that they would, however I would say that about soft steel like the factory supplied action.  If you own a CZ your trigger will improve to a point with both live and dry firing, most people will notice an improvement around the 500 round mark and it pretty much is done by 3000 rounds.  It is not magical; it is metallurgy, a factual science of the properties and characteristics of different alloys.  Soft steel will peen and burnish a smoother contact surface, thus the sear and hammer have less friction and the trigger feels better.  Even if I stone matching surfaces on a stock sear and hammer it will still wear it self over a short period of time to a better feeling trigger, this is a fact and I don't know of any smith or metallurgist that will deny this fact. Steel on steel will wear or burnish, but the harder the steel the less it will do so provided it is preped with a glass like or ultra polished matching surface, the grain structure is much denser in hard S7 or higher steel, this is not magical it is factual.  The rolling break of a CZ 97 is due to the way it leaves the factory, and the CZ 97B,75B, 75, 85C, 85B 40B and SP-01 all use the exact same action.  If you want a rolling trigger that is great but most people prefer a crisp trigger that is more predictable and can be set from 1.75 lbs to 5 lbs, where you know that once the slack is taken up just a bit more pressure on the trigger will trip the sear, just like a 1911 or revolvers SA trigger with a custom action.  Both are equally safe if properly done and both are equally unsafe if improperly done, and thats where you need to know the gunsmith who is doing the work and his/her reputation and experience with your make and model gun.

Metallurgy of the modern firearm is a very complicated science, well beyond my complete understanding.  However I do know what parts and types of steel belong in a properly tuned action, I have seen this area grow over the past 25 years with improved parts strictly for the action workings of the modern firearm.  I have been a guest of S&W and Sig Arms and spoken with their engineers, these people know the exact whats and whys of each part of a modern firearm.  They are highly educated and design and engineer the best built firearms you can buy.  They know what types of steel and alloys to use for each and every part of a firearm, and the companys they work for listen to them and produce what they specify.  What I have taken away from my time with them is the proper steel and alloys to use in my area of firearms modification.  

CZ makes a great gun but it could be improved greatly for just a few dollars more with the proper steel type and hardness for the action components.  Then you could use and rely on these parts to tune them to the exact specifications of the individual owner.  But thats just not the case at this point in time.  If you want an action job with OEM parts we will do it, but it will not be tuned like those with a hard sear and soon to be available equally hard hammer.  If stock is what you like thats great, but for those looking for better, stock will not do because physically it is not capable of it.

Jim

Miossi Gun Works LLC
702 Park Dr
Monticello, IA 52310

Offline Mindsink

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2005, 04:40:32 PM »
Well said Jim. Wow I learn so much on this forum and especially from people like Jim. Btw Jim I got those punches today. I sent my pistol out to CZ-USA and I should soon be using them. Thanks.

Offline Miossi Gun Works

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2005, 05:17:31 PM »
Glad to hear that CZ will attempt the correct repair at their cost for shipping both ways, keep me informed.

Jim

Miossi Gun Works LLC
702 Park Dr
Monticello, IA 52310

Offline Mindsink

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2005, 01:15:53 AM »
I will deffinetly keep everyone informed. Jim when are you expecting to have the hard hammers ready for install? Since a hammer already has so much metal behind it what pluses will a hardened hammer bring to the table?

BRASMAN

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2005, 01:34:02 AM »
Thanks for explaining that Jim it was very informative.

Offline Miossi Gun Works

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Installing hard sear.
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2005, 02:28:04 AM »
The stock and Angus hammers do have plenty of steel behind the hooks and that is why they do not deform.  However a steel of equal hardness will have a denser grain structure and being the same base steel as our sear it will offer even more latitude and control in the cutting and honing to meet the customers requested pull weight and type let off.  Being made of carbon steel it will have a more self lubricating or gliding properties and just offer the customer another option in what is available.  Especially when we get down to the 33 to 25% sear / hammer engagement along with a raised sear bed much like the Angus hammer.

Jim

Miossi Gun Works LLC
702 Park Dr
Monticello, IA 52310