new production SHORT RAIL 75s, for the 75th anniv. of CZ

[parabellum]

Any pictures, documents, or postings that discuss broken guns with high P ammo?

I recall reading that early (earliest?) CZ 75s had frames cast in Spain and those were subject to cracking.

Funny you should mention that. In a Guns&Ammo Annual from a few years back, Gene Gangarosa, in writing about Star pistols, mentioned that there were some "prototype" CZ75 frames made in Spain. Since the article refers to Star's 28/30/31 series of pistols, which use the reverse slide/frame relationship of the CZ75, I was under the impression these "prototype" CZ75 frames were somehow related to the design of the Star 28 Series of pistols.

Mister Gangarosa's single sentence in that article is the only place I've seen this mentioned.

I'll tell you who could shed some light on that, is Leo Antaris, who wrote the definitive books on Star firearms. I happen to have a copy of this superb work and I will take a look at it this evening.

[Steve B]

Please do parabellum as it would be very interesting to know what the 'real deal' was.

Unfortunately, as this was quite a number of years ago I do not recall who the reference was regarding the Spanish cast frames.
I'll see if I can find it in my somewhere in my archives (i.e. the room where everything gets lost).

[Southern Forester]

The M28 does not have much in common with the CZ-75 beyond the interior rails, which was done by the SIG 210 before either pistol was on the drawing board.  It was designed for trials in the US and then used by the Spanish military, as well as the updated M30.  In any case, the M28, according to Stephen Camp, is forged and so would have had nothing to do with castings made for CZ.

There has been talk of inferior frames being cast in Spain in the early 1980's, but these frames were long and not short.  As to how to distinguish them, there seems no good information.  Also, the quality of the castings may have caused pistol problems, or simply may have been off spec, requiring extra manufacturing.

[parabellum]

OK, here's the excerpt I mentioned earlier:

"Around 1978 Echeverria adopted another foreign influence, the Czech CZ 75 pistol. In the mid-1970s Echeverria made some CZ 75 frames in Spain under Ceska Zbojovka contract. The company liked the CZ 75 and modified the design to suit local preferences, a common theme in Spanish handgun manufacture."   - A Brief History of Spanish Automatic Pistols by Gene Gangarosa Jr., as published in the Guns&Ammo Handguns 2004 Annual, pg. 77

"Echeverria" refers, of course, to Star. I find no mention of this in Gangarosa's book Spanish Handguns - The History of Spanish Pistols & Revolvers, published in 2001.

I'll take a look in Antaris' book on Star firearms, but I do not recall this tidbit of information in it, although it would be easy to overlook a fact or two in his book. It's a monster, full of information.

In the meantime, I nominate the Star Model 30 to be the Best Empty Pistol to use as a Bludgeon. The thing's a tank. 

Three of mine. Right to Left- Star Model 28, Model 30, and Model 31PK

[pivoproseem]

There is a short blurb about the Spanish made frame in the cz75 book by Pazdera that Cz released..

[Steve B]

Thanks parabellum, nice Star pistols there.
Although Star borrowed from the CZ design, they had a few clever ideas of their own as I recall (noting the lack of screws as one of them).

[parabellum]

There is a short blurb about the Spanish made frame in the cz75 book by Pazdera that Cz released..

Do you have access to that book, and can you post what the book says?

[pivoproseem]

short version- in 1980 started to use frames cast by ALFA, S.A. of Eibar, Spain, a sewing machine parts maker. It was expensive for CZ and QC problems and late deliveries from them slowed down production at CZ. CZ started to make thier own investment cast parts in 82-83

[parabellum]

Outstanding. Thank you!

[CM Rich]

Yeeeeee!

This is outstanding! A new short-rail so I don't have to worry about my '78 eventually breaking or wearing out (though I have a healthy supply of spare parts for it). Sure, it may be a "halo product", but so what? All of the looks of the old beauty, but with new-school metallurgy and machining, along with a factory warranty, makes this a no-brainer for me. I just hope it uses new mags (which it no doubt will), and that it uses the original "CZ in a circle" logo, since the UB logo would look really out of place.

Man, this is awesome. I guess I know what to do with that Vltor Bren Ten money now. There was that P-210 Legend I was eyeballing, as well as a potential search for a WMK-marked Colt 01911, but this would take priority, no doubt.

If it does make it to the US, and it most likely will if it does indeed make it into production given CZ's recent record of bringing over a majority of its goodies to US shores, then this is certainly a good show of faith on CZ's part towards it's biggest fans, since this kind of thing will only appeal to the most avid old school CZ fan. What an awesome company that knows how to treat its fans, I say.

[parabellum]

I guess I know what to do with that Vltor Bren Ten money now.

I take it by this comment that the Bren Ten remake never made it to the market? I guess that explains why I've never seen one.

[Grendel]

I guess I know what to do with that Vltor Bren Ten money now.

I take it by this comment that the Bren Ten remake never made it to the market? I guess that explains why I've never seen one.

Me either. That's another repro I'd be interested in.

From Vltor's blog (3/31/11):

We would like to inform our customers, industry partners and friends that Sporting Products of West Palm Beach, FL is no longer handling the distribution or sales of the Vltor Bren Ten pistol ? this news came to us recently from Sporting Products and we are unable to make any further comments regarding the dissolution.

We do want to let everyone know that we are bringing the full management and oversight of the Vltor Bren Ten back under our roof; effective immediately the design, manufacture, marketing and distribution of the Bren Ten will be solely and squarely on Vltor Weapon Systems and Abrams Airborne Manufacturing. We hope that this repositioning will allow us to not only oversee this project from start to finish, but that it will also put us in direct contact with the retailers and customers. In the next few weeks, we will reestablish our presence on the Internet and open the forum to provide updated and candid information about the Bren Ten pistol.

We do want to say that beyond our initial discussions to use Sporting Products as the sole distributor of the Bren Ten, we have not committed to any pre-orders or sales agreements, nor have we received any down payment for any of the Bren Ten pistols. If you believe that you have a purchase agreement of any type for the Bren Ten, you should contact Sporting Products directly with your concerns.

Again, we hope to make the best of this event and get the Vltor Bren Ten to the shooting market as soon as possible.

Link

[Southern Forester]

Perhaps they should have partnered with that Italian firm that everyone, the Swiss, Czechs, Turks, and Israelis, have partnered with to make their versions of the CZ-75.

[CM Rich]

Yeah, I was really looking forward to the new Bren, but Vltor has been jerking its customers around for years now. Its really hard to justify giving them money when they've been so lame for so long. I'd much rather give my money to a company that deserves it, like CZ. The latest spiel on Vltor's blog is the same "coming soon" rhetoric they've been feeding us for 3 years now.

You know, I would have loved CZ to make a Bren Ten. It would have been done right. Maybe some day they'll make a 10mm CZ and cut into the clone market share a bit more, not that they're all that worried about it. Maybe Dan Wesson could have taken a crack at it.

Ah well. I can spend the Bren money on a new short-rail, plenty of mags, and lotsa ammo. Not a bad dust up.

[parabellum]

Sounds like the Gun Gods don't want the Bren Ten to live. First, the mag issue with Dornaus&Dixon that killed the original, then Peregrine Industries was going to resurrect the pistol in the early 1990s but never got off the ground, and now this.