BREAKING! New gunwalking revelations, Grassley reacts

[bozwell]

The question would really be whether he directly said F&F started under Bush's term, or whether its origins and/or related programs under Project Gunrunner started under Bush's term.  The first would be inaccurate, but the second would be accurate. 

I found it interesting that Holder was cleared by the DOJ report.  Personally, I've never believed the people who suggested F&F was a plot by the anti's to somehow enact stronger anti-firearms legislation or anything along those lines.  Rather, it's just another sad example of pure stupidity by our government when they naively thought, with admirable intentions, that this silly project would work.

[armoredman]

I respectfully disagree, as it falls in line with Dear Leaders stated objectives, and the known propensity of leftist politicians to litter their pathway with bodies.
The article said he stated,

"I think it's important for us to understand that the Fast and Furious program was a field-initiated program begun under the previous administration," the president said.

No "misstatement", it's a bald faced lie. Holder was cleared by DoJ, because he's the boss of DoJ, nothing more.

[bozwell]

I'd say it's more of a mistatement.  F&F isn't the only one of these programs the government initiated under project gunrunner (which was initiated during the previous president's term) - it's just the largest and most well-known.  The program itself that F&F is part of started before Obama took office and involved similar events. 

I'm not saying the administration should be off the hook for this.  I'm not saying blame Bush for this.  Not at all.  But assumptions about Obama's secret agenda behind this program, assuming he's lying to promote some secret anti-2nd amendment plan, and so on?  I don't buy it.  They simply kept the same program started under the previous administration going and expanded it, it was an incredibly stupid program, and it (not surprisingly, given how stupid it was) blew up in their faces.  No conspiracy, no secret agendas, just a prime example of how stupid our government can be at times.

As far as the report clearing him solely "because he's the boss of DoJ" and "nothing more", I'd love to see the proof of that.  There's a reason GOP lawmakers have backed off this issue in the past few days - their original assumptions aren't supported by the report. 

[75Plus]

The Bush era "Operation Wide Receiver" was conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican Government. It was shut down in 2007 when it became apparent that the weapons were being lost. Somewhere around three years later it was re erected by the new  kids on the block.

BHO flat out lied when he told the Univision interviewer that "Fast and Furious" was the continuation of a program started during the past administration"

Operation Wide Receiver involved approximately 300 guns. ( Holder's estimate) Fast and Furious involved approximately 2000 guns. (Congressional testimony)

Joe

[skipper]

Simply government gone wild!!! We have an empty chair in the White House with all incompetent appiontee's AWOL and a spineless congress on vacation until after the election. We finance our enemies. What hell else could possibly go wrong?

[bozwell]

The Bush era "Operation Wide Receiver" was conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican Government. It was shut down in 2007 when it became apparent that the weapons were being lost. Somewhere around three years later it was re erected by the new  kids on the block.

BHO flat out lied when he told the Univision interviewer that "Fast and Furious" was the continuation of a program started during the past administration"

Operation Wide Receiver involved approximately 300 guns. ( Holder's estimate) Fast and Furious involved approximately 2000 guns. (Congressional testimony)

Joe

It being a larger operation doesn't mean it's not part of the same program.  Again, I'm not blaming Bush for this fiasco, but realize it's effectively the same program started back up again.  As such, statements to that effect, while questionable, misleading and ultimately pointless, aren't what I would call out and out lies.  There is an element of truth to them.

The operation was incredibly dumb (both times, and particularly the 2nd time after it didn't work before...), but at the end of the day, I've seen nothing to make me think that was anything more than stupidity (which our government has plenty of).

[ZTATactical]

I respectfully disagree, as it falls in line with Dear Leaders stated objectives, and the known propensity of leftist politicians to litter their pathway with bodies.
The article said he stated,

"I think it's important for us to understand that the Fast and Furious program was a field-initiated program begun under the previous administration," the president said.

No "misstatement", it's a bald faced lie. Holder was cleared by DoJ, because he's the boss of DoJ, nothing more.

I'd say it's more of a mistatement.  F&F isn't the only one of these programs the government initiated under project gunrunner (which was initiated during the previous president's term) - it's just the largest and most well-known.  The program itself that F&F is part of started before Obama took office and involved similar events. 

I'm not saying the administration should be off the hook for this.  I'm not saying blame Bush for this.  Not at all.  But assumptions about Obama's secret agenda behind this program, assuming he's lying to promote some secret anti-2nd amendment plan, and so on?  I don't buy it.  They simply kept the same program started under the previous administration going and expanded it, it was an incredibly stupid program, and it (not surprisingly, given how stupid it was) blew up in their faces.  No conspiracy, no secret agendas, just a prime example of how stupid our government can be at times.

As far as the report clearing him solely "because he's the boss of DoJ" and "nothing more", I'd love to see the proof of that.  There's a reason GOP lawmakers have backed off this issue in the past few days - their original assumptions aren't supported by the report. 

Well they sure do seem to misspeak a lot.   I also recall the misspeaking to be an excuse for Hillary, another gun hater,  when she lied about how her and her daughter were having to evade sniper fire when she was visiting Bosnia in 1996 as first lady. How the hell can someone blame that on misspeaking. That was a pure out flat lie.   Then with the latest lies about the Lybian attack.   This just like their MO.  More lies....

[bozwell]

I remember that one from Hillary.  She mentioned sniper fire, turns out it was a 12 year old girl reading a poem. 

[75Plus]

It being a larger operation doesn't mean it's not part of the same program.  Again, I'm not blaming Bush for this fiasco, but realize it's effectively the same program started back up again.  As such, statements to that effect, while questionable, misleading and ultimately pointless, aren't what I would call out and out lies.  There is an element of truth to them.

The operation was incredibly dumb (both times, and particularly the 2nd time after it didn't work before...), but at the end of the day, I've seen nothing to make me think that was anything more than stupidity (which our government has plenty of).

Let me get this straight, a program is found to be flawed and is canceled. It stays canceled for about three years then the New Kids on the Block decide that the only reason it did not work was because THEY didn't do it. When they fail too it is suddenly because Bush got it wrong. Give me a break!!!!!

Joe

[bozwell]

In all due respect, please point out where I said they only failed because Bush got it wrong.  Who knows, maybe it's somewhere buried in between all the statements where I said I don't blame Bush for this whatsoever?  If you actually read my posts, particularly the multiple explicit statements on this exact subject, I think it's pretty obvious that's not what I'm saying.

[armoredman]

I can say that with the known qualities of Mexican Federal Law Enforcement, it was stupid for ATFE to try even the limited Wide Receiver program under President Bush - ever firearm sent in supposedly under the watchful eye of Mexican LE went missing. I have lived 60+ miles north of the border most of my life, and I will never cross it - corruption and graft down there makes Chicago look like Plymouth under the Pilgrims.

[skipper]

I can say that with the known qualities of Mexican Federal Law Enforcement, it was stupid for ATFE to try even the limited Wide Receiver program under President Bush - ever firearm sent in supposedly under the watchful eye of Mexican LE went missing. I have lived 60+ miles north of the border most of my life, and I will never cross it - corruption and graft down there makes Chicago look like Plymouth under the Pilgrims.

+1 Raised in South Texas and know exactly what you are saying.

[Skookum]

There appears to be confusion, likely rooted in blame Bushism, as to the difference between Project Gunrunner, Operation Wide Receiver, and Operation Fast & Furious.

Gunrunner was established during the Bush administration to reduce and deny illegal transfers into Mexico of firearms sold in the US.  The project is overt and ongoing and has the support of the Mexican government.  It relies principally on the use of eTrace software to identify any firearms of US origin that find there way into Mexico.

Wide Receiver was a covert operation conducted under the auspices of Gunrunner during the Bush administration.  It was done with the knowledge and approval of the Mexican government.  A few hundred guns were allowed to walk, but each gun contained an embedded tracking device.  The operation was terminated during the Bush administration after the ATF lost track of some of the guns.  In other words, when the adminstration found out that the operation was less than 100% reliable, they killed it.

During the Obama administration Fast & Furious was initiated.  F&F was covert and the Mexican government was not informed about it.  Furthermore, no tracking devices were embedded in any of the firearms involved.  Thousands of guns were walked and eventually linked to hundreds of deaths in Mexico as well as the deaths of US Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and US ICE agent Jamie Zapata.  F&F involved the US illegally aiding and abetting the smuggling of arms into Mexico knowing full well that deaths would result.  The Obama administration persecuted and still persecutes agency whistleblowers, lied to Congress during the Congressional investigation, and do all they can to obstruct that investigation and confuse their illegal operation with the overriding, but overt and perfectly legitimate Project Gunrunner and the earlier, smaller, and multi-national Operation Wide Receiver, which at least tried to keep track of guns before they were used maliciously.

Calling F&F dumb is an illogical attempt to whitewash the operation.  Letting thousands of guns walk without trying to keep track of them can only be nefarious.  Lying about it to Congress and the public just reinforces the nefarious nature of the operation.  But what can one expect when thd government is turned over to Chicago mobsters?

[bozwell]

Calling F&F dumb is an illogical attempt to whitewash the operation.  Letting thousands of guns walk without trying to keep track of them can only be nefarious.  Lying about it to Congress and the public just reinforces the nefarious nature of the operation. 

Except they did try and keep track of the firearms, by having agents following the purchasers, using wiretaps, etc.  Their (naive) goal was the same as the earlier projects, hoping to catch the straw purchasers and to link the purchases to criminal activities taking place on the other side of the border.  Dumb?  Yes.  But so is using RFID (which is ill-suited for these purposes) and eTrace (which merely lets the Mexican government access ATF information related to a firearm they've seized).  With full knowledge of the minor differences between these failed operations, I find it hard to believe that someone could label one operation "perfectly legitimate" and the other "illegal" without a heavy political influence.

Reviving an poorly designed operation and implementing it unilaterally on a larger scale is incredibly foolish, but I see nothing nefarious about the facts here and there's absolutely no evidence of such intent.  Our government has done far more idiotic things in the past. 

[Skookum]

boz,

If I didn't know better, I'd swear I was on MSNBC's website when I read some of your posts.

Fast and Furious was not a revival of Wide Receiver, and the differences between the two operations are hardly trivial.  Aiding and abetting smuggling across an international border is a crime.  Obstruction of Congress is a crime.

If it was your son who was one of the victims of F&F, would you still think it was just a dumb operation?