Author Topic: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial  (Read 45268 times)

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th3ug1y0n3

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Re: Treyvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 05:06:28 PM »
I do feel sorry for him if he gets convicted.  They will be all over him in prison.

Offline bozwell

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Re: Treyvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2012, 05:35:26 PM »
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Personally I can't see any reason to arrest Zimmerman until more facts in the case are developed by police investigation, plenty of time for that. Law enforcement would be incredibly busy if it was routine to arrest people for being stupid. At present there's no evidence or proof that Zimmerman committed a crime, at least in the eyes of law enforcement. Not knowing the facts prevents accusations against either man. However in reading between the lines, apparently Martin was not of a stellar character, busy running for altar boy of the year, but rather had a rap sheet like a roll of toilet paper.

No evidence or proof he committed a crime?  Seriously?  There's no dispute that Zimmerman shot and killed Martin, it was Zimmerman who pursued Martin, and Martin was completely unarmed.  While that may not be a first degree murder charge, there was more than ample evidence to make a prima facie case for other degrees of murder.  There is ample evidence that he committed a crime, in large part because Zimmerman admits to shooting Martin.

Now, there is a possible affirmative defense Zimmerman can present to mitigate or completely overcome certain charges (i.e., self defense).  However, Zimmerman's claim of self defense is far from airtight, as, at the very least, Martin was completely unarmed.  Even if Martin pushed or threw a punch at Zimmerman, ask anyone who's studied criminal law or even taken a basic concealed carry course whether you're allowed to use lethal force in response to, say, a fist fight, and they will tell you that the force you use must be proportional to the force being used against you.  I'm not saying there couldn't be facts here that lead to a claim of self defense, but we don't have those facts yet.  Given that, I don't buy for a second that the police didn't have probable cause at the time of their arrest, and I think they made a blatant mistake when they failed to make an arrest with indisputable evidence that Zimmerman pulled the trigger and with only a dubious claim of self defense cutting against that.  That's probably one factor in why the police chief involved stepped down about an hour ago. :P

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Treyvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 06:13:11 PM »
As I mentioned, lacking the facts in the altercation and shooting I can't say that Zimmerman should be or should not be arrested: lacking facts.

However I must take exception to this comment:

"Even if Martin pushed or threw a punch at Zimmerman, ask anyone who's studied criminal law or even taken a basic concealed carry course whether you're allowed to use lethal force in response to, say, a fist fight, and they will tell you that the force you use must be proportional to the force being used against you."

That information is incorrect. In many states the law does not require equal force at all. The requirement is only 'In fear of your life or of grievious bodily injury'. I understand your thinking and meaning, but that's not the way the laws read.

In many cases you have a huge disparity of force that leaves one person helpless in an attack, say only with physical violence with the hands. Punching out a little old lady and then choking her neck with the hands, under your premise, she may only defend herself with equal force, to fight back with her hands! Wrong: she may pull out her .357 magnum and blow the scumbag into kingdom come, legally thank God!

This is an extremely inportant issue to me because of injuries I suffered, which prevents me from using the natural weapons I used to have. By law I may have an equalizer to defend myself and it may be used legally against an unarmed man who is viciously assaulting or attempting to do great bodily harm.

Not saying any of that applies to Martin and Zimmerman, just that it is the law. Still, I don't know the facts on that case as yet so I can't make a hasty judgement.

Offline painter

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Re: Treyvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2012, 06:43:05 PM »
I do feel sorry for him if he gets convicted.  They will be all over him in prison.
I don't feel sorry for any murderer...and that is what Zimmerman is IMO.

There are lots of issues involved here.

Standing your ground isn't one of them.
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline armed hiker

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Re: Treyvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2012, 08:59:45 PM »
 I have a few problems with this.
It makes no sense to me that Zimmerman did not get arrested or at least hauled in until the details were settled. I do not deal with this like those in law enforcement But it seems like there is another story everyday about a citizen protecting themselves and getting hauled off to the pokey until proving it was truly necessary. This just seems 180 degrees off from everything you read about.

Zimmerman is being tried in the court of public opinion (maybe justly) fanned by some that see this as an opportunity rather than the tragedy it is. What were the facts that led the police to not arrest zimmerman? Everything we keep reading about certainly point to him being a " white hispanic", Racist", "wannabe cop", with a police record who may have been under the influence of something..... but we will never know.

Because the police in his town are such screw ups? Really?
Now I have known my share of LEOs and they are just as human as the rest of us , But I really have a hard time imagining them blowing it this bad. Maybe it is true, time and many,many investigations will tell. I see it as a bad situation that is just going to get a whole lot worse.

RIP Treyvon.
Mr Zimmerman, better have some good legal council. Or at least a better Pr person.

th3ug1y0n3

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Re: Treyvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2012, 10:41:07 PM »
Devil advocate here I guess, but the public does not know the details of this issue.   Sure the majority that is currently involved with fanning this issue makes it seem like Treyvon was an innocent All American high school kid.  In reality we the public and those fanning the issue do not the specifics and only going off of what the media is airing. 

The witnesses that have been interviewed by main stream media say that Zimmerman was on top of the boy with his leg straddled over Treyvon indicating that Zimmerman was the aggressor.  If they saw this much, why did they not see him shot Treyvon.  There are only bits and parts that we are hearing.

I wonder what will happen should the investigation come out that local law enforcement did their job.  Will the public still want the Chief to resign?  The public is just jumping to conclusions and they need to let the investigation take its due course.

As far as feeling sorry, again I don?t know if Zimmerman just flat out murdered this kid.  I really deep down don?t think that he was out there to kill. 

Offline armoredman

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Re: Treyvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2012, 12:09:32 AM »
I was always told that the most unreliable witness is the eyewitness. I really wonder what exactly went on, as I hear many many conflicting details. This one we'll have to wait for an official report on for the story as they tell it.

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2012, 11:39:44 PM »
Some interesting updated information showing another side of the coin:

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin#ixzz1q3yaSmgV

See links in story and update at the bottom of page given above.

Another witness described here with another view of who attacked whom:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 11:58:31 PM by Spirit 1 »

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2012, 12:27:35 AM »
And there's more!

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2012/03/why-was-trayvon-martin-photo-altered.html

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/fox-tampa-breaks-silence-on-trayvon-shooting-witness

Martin was visiting his father's house because he was kicked out of school on a ten day suspension. There were reports that he had 'Behavioral Problems' in school. He was 6' 2" and on his high school football team which his father coached, but had left the team and the school for some reason. He was attending his second high school and staying with his mother until the ten day suspension occured, as I read it. His mother lived 250 miles away. It appears that he left the school and football team where his father coached and enrolled in another high school where his mother lived, unknown why at this point as all school records are sealed.

One school official stated he was suspended for being 'Tardy'. First reports were that it was a 5 day suspension. Actually it was a 10 suspension and this was supposedly only for 'Being in an unauthorized area' according to another school official. However a 10 day suspension is the last serious step before being expelled.

More links:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Police Report: http://tinyurl.com/6rvj3os

Zimmerman 911 call records over a considerable period of time: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

911 Calls from night of shooting: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Fox Orland info [may be repeat]: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/subindex/news/trayvon_martin




Offline Twmaster

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2012, 12:32:06 AM »
Well now, that changes things a bit....

I can understand the witness wishing to remain anonymous. I cannot image the amount of hate he will get from a certain constituency pushing this (mis)carriage.
Mike

Because liars fear the truth.

Offline armoredman

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2012, 12:42:31 AM »
I would hazard a guess that there had to be some substantial evidence of the self defense justification claim for PD to not arrest on scene.

Offline painter

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2012, 07:42:23 AM »
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Quote
Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

This is the problem I have with the whole thing.

Standing your ground and self defense do not mix with following someone.

I'll wait for the courts...we won't get any 'facts' from the news.
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline Thorâ„¢

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2012, 09:26:38 AM »
Zimmerman has done a dis-service to legal responsible gun carriers if he gets a pass under this law.

HTC Vision

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2012, 09:55:06 AM »
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Quote
Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

This is the problem I have with the whole thing.
Standing your ground and self defense do not mix with following someone.

I'll wait for the courts...we won't get any 'facts' from the news.

I see a possible different perspective. Zimmerman was one of the main Neighborhood Watch guys, evidently for a long time. That's an elected position after local Neighborhood Watch meeting when folks are selected to be on a Watch roster, with duty schedules etc. He wasn't just a local nutcase vigilante, he was doing what he was supposed to do on Neighborhood Watch, decided by a casual local election process. He had a Concealed Carry Permit.

Problem is it's SOP for 911 operators to tell ALL callers not to do anything about any crime in any way, regardless of the crime, just let the police handle it when they finally get there.

Zimmerman knew there were recent burglaries and Martin fit a vague general description. He also knew Martin was not a local resident in their locked, gated, private community. He may have only wanted to get a better look at him, and possibly make it obvious that he had been seen by local Neighborhood Watch. He might have been checking to see if Martin was a guest at a local home?

I believe his mistake was getting out of his car, but that might be different if Martin disappeared into an area and Zimmerman simply followed on foot to get a look at where the unknown stranger went. That's a fairly reasonable, and legal, scenario.

If 6' 2" football player athlete Martin then jumped out of the shadows, violently knocked him down and started beating him nearly to death the rest is self explanatory. According to several witnesses Zimmerman was knocked down and screamed out to neighbors for help first as he was being beaten. No help arrived and as a last resort he drew and shot.

One thing that really stands out to me is that Zimmerman never pulled his gun until he was getting pounded into the dirt. That pretty much eliminates a violent wannabe tough guy super hero syndrome. It appears more likely to me that he may have been simply following, maybe stupidly but innocently,  to gather information, just like Neighborhood Watch does in many communities.

That's why there may be more to this than meets the eye, which might explain why police filed no charges against Zimmerman.

th3ug1y0n3

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2012, 10:09:17 AM »
I agree that if he approached and started to question the suspicious individual then he was in the wrong.  That is for the police to do.  However he was the watchman of the neighborhood and he was there to keep watch.  If he kept his distance and was just keeping an eye on the suspicious individual, and the suspicious individual attacked him, and he felt at that point that his life was in danger then I feel that he was justified.

I think that it is important to keep in mind that he was assigned as the watchman.  A watchman is supposed to keep an eye on the neighborhood. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 10:11:09 AM by th3ug1y0n3 »