Author Topic: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial  (Read 84039 times)

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Offline bozwell

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #285 on: July 13, 2012, 09:33:55 AM »
The general main stream media is against GZ and I expect that most of their reporting will unflattering or negative against GM.  You don't see them reporting on the negative aspects of Travons past.  The general mainstream media has their antigun agenda and will do anything to make gun incidents look negative.

There's a lot of truth in that, although I'm skeptical that the negative aspects of Travon's past are even going to get admitted into evidence at trial (in which case it's arguably pointless to cover them in news articles).  Unless Florida has some evidence laws that differ greatly from the model rules, I would imagine TM's weed charges and other past events will stay out.

Frankly, other than the bail issues (which GZ brought upon himself), I haven't heard anything new in this case and I doubt we will until the trial is underway.  Honestly, given that there were no witnesses that saw how the encounter started and how it escalated, a lot of this is going to come down to which testimony the jury believes.  GZ will give his account and argue that it was his voice on the 911 recording, the prosecution will argue it was TM's voice, and it will come down to which witnesses the jury believes.  That's why I think it was so incredibly stupid for GZ and his wife to lie to the judge at the bail hearing.  The prosecution is going to throw that back in their faces and use it to impeach their credibility (I think pretty effectively) at trial, and at the end of the day his greed may end up costing him years of his personal freedom.

Offline DenStinett

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #286 on: July 13, 2012, 07:12:06 PM »
I?ve tried to stay out of the question of ?The Bail? issue
I just can't bite my lip any longer
When asked under oath if George Zimmerman has X dollars for bail, he answered ?NO?
That was a truthful answer
George Zimmerman did not have X dollars for bail
There is/was a fund set-up for his DEFENSE
Now everyone is arguing that this was his money to use as he saw fit?.NO, not ethically !
Here are a couple simple (hypothetic) examples
A fund is set-up to help bury Trayvon Martin
It collects tens of thousands of dollars
The Martins take a thousand bucks, have the kid cremated on the cheap and then vacation in the Bahamas with the rest of the money
OR?.
Money is donated to help rebuild a small Church ravaged by a wild fire
The Pastor takes the funds and remodels the Kitchen and Bathroom at the Parish House instead
OR........
Moneys are earmarked to feed one thousand homeless people, but the Fund Organizers first spend a majority of the cash (enough to feed another fifteen hundred people) and throw a lavish banquet for the Fund Raisers
How would that fly ?
It may be legal, but it?s not ethical
So think on this?.Maybe George answered the question "NO", because he is actually an ethical man?.HE DID NOT HAVE MONEY FOR BAIL, he had money for his defense !
And that?s the point GZ?s lawyer was trying to make to that ?Judge? (and I use THAT term loosely)
Everyone who touches this case is looking to make a name for themselves
It?s the OJ ordeal all over again
So tell me again how Trump was worse then the 8 years before .... AND what's coming after HIM !

Offline Ross7

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #287 on: July 13, 2012, 08:39:24 PM »
And that?s the point GZ?s lawyer was trying to make to that ?Judge? (and I use THAT term loosely)

And now he wants another one.
Quote
The ex-neighborhood watch volunteer charged with killing Trayvon Martin asked for a new judge Friday, claiming the current one is biased because he said George Zimmerman had "flaunted the system."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/13/george-zimmerman-asks-for-new-judge-again/



Offline armoredman

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #288 on: July 13, 2012, 09:06:13 PM »
I do believe the reporter needs to go back to English 101...sounds like the word should be "flouted", not "flaunted".

Offline bozwell

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #289 on: July 13, 2012, 11:24:15 PM »
I?ve tried to stay out of the question of ?The Bail? issue
I just can't bite my lip any longer
When asked under oath if George Zimmerman has X dollars for bail, he answered ?NO?
That was a truthful answer
George Zimmerman did not have X dollars for bail
There is/was a fund set-up for his DEFENSE
Now everyone is arguing that this was his money to use as he saw fit?.NO, not ethically !
Here are a couple simple (hypothetic) examples
A fund is set-up to help bury Trayvon Martin
It collects tens of thousands of dollars
The Martins take a thousand bucks, have the kid cremated on the cheap and then vacation in the Bahamas with the rest of the money
OR?.
Money is donated to help rebuild a small Church ravaged by a wild fire
The Pastor takes the funds and remodels the Kitchen and Bathroom at the Parish House instead
OR........
Moneys are earmarked to feed one thousand homeless people, but the Fund Organizers first spend a majority of the cash (enough to feed another fifteen hundred people) and throw a lavish banquet for the Fund Raisers
How would that fly ?
It may be legal, but it?s not ethical
So think on this?.Maybe George answered the question "NO", because he is actually an ethical man?.HE DID NOT HAVE MONEY FOR BAIL, he had money for his defense !
And that?s the point GZ?s lawyer was trying to make to that ?Judge? (and I use THAT term loosely)
Everyone who touches this case is looking to make a name for themselves
It?s the OJ ordeal all over again

If you want to make a moral argument for not tying this money up with a bail bondsman (not sure why that matters - obviously he has and can afford an attorney and has ample legal defense, but regardless...) - tell the judge that you have X dollars but that it was donated for purposes of legal defense and that make the argument that it shouldn't considered for bail purposes.  I personally find that viewpoint to be a bit naive and frankly inconsistent with the current state of the law, and I doubt it would fly in a bail hearing, but even if that argument is 100% right, the moral way for GZ to resolve the issue is to be truthful about the funds and to make that argument to the judge during the bail hearing. 

Instead, GZ chose to lie to the judge about his funds, to have his wife move the funds from his personal checking account to another account with multiple <$10,000 withdrawals, and generally acted scummy when it came to the entire issue.  You can bash the judge if you want, but he was 110% correct on this issue. 

Remember also that instead of giving a bail bondsman $100,000-150,000 after the judge increased the bail to $1,000,000, GZ could have simply stayed in jail.  Understand that the legal system does not REQUIRE him to make bail.  It gives him the option to post bail or stay in jail.  As such, GZ first lied about his resources, and then he purposefully chose to give money donated to his "legal defense fund" to a bail bondsman, at which point the bail bondsman posted the $1,000,000 bail on his behalf.  He could have easily preserved these donations only for legal defense purposes, which may mean not posting bail, just as easily as he could have not lied to the judge in the first place.  If you want to place blame here for your donations going to a bail bondsman, it's not on the judge - it's on GZ.

Honestly, any arguments suggesting that GZ was "morally" in the right here are laughable to me, and just evidence a clear misunderstanding of how our criminal system works.  I'm all for supporting a fellow CCW holder but this was not a moral act on GZ's behalf, and any sort of rationalizing his lies after the fact is nonsense. 

Offline Twmaster

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #290 on: July 14, 2012, 01:12:33 AM »
While I agree that GZ (or more specifically Mrs. GZ) lied to the judge and should be called to task for that, I also think from the comments made by the current judge I'm inclined to believe GZ would have a hard time getting an impartial trial. Right or wrong, that judge was honked off at GZ and he let it be known in what I believe was an in appropriate way.

The Zimmermans should have informed the court of the legal defense fund. No matter what it's intended use.
Mike

Because liars fear the truth.

Offline burley

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #291 on: July 14, 2012, 02:36:55 PM »
What I know about this stuff could fill maybe an index card, but my understanding is that a basic tenet of the USA is a speedy trial and a fair and reasonable bond.  Since when can a judge use the bond ammount as punishment?  Mabe they do need a new judge, one that's fair and impartial and not a petty, small minded egotist.
LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL

th3ug1y0n3

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #292 on: July 14, 2012, 06:27:15 PM »
What I know about this stuff could fill maybe an index card, but my understanding is that a basic tenet of the USA is a speedy trial and a fair and reasonable bond.  Since when can a judge use the bond ammount as punishment?  Mabe they do need a new judge, one that's fair and impartial and not a petty, small minded egotist.
I don't think that such a judge exists.

Offline burley

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #293 on: July 14, 2012, 08:33:08 PM »
What I know about this stuff could fill maybe an index card, but my understanding is that a basic tenet of the USA is a speedy trial and a fair and reasonable bond.  Since when can a judge use the bond ammount as punishment?  Mabe they do need a new judge, one that's fair and impartial and not a petty, small minded egotist.
I don't think that such a judge exists.

;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJGk4ofc18
LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #294 on: July 15, 2012, 08:47:30 AM »
Moving right along, George Zimmerman Defense requests new Judge, claims current Judge shows bias and prejudice:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/14/george-zimmerman-asks-for-new-judge-claiming-bias/?test=latestnews

Offline burley

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #295 on: July 15, 2012, 11:34:15 AM »
I think that's what the discussions been about, Spirit.
LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL

Offline bozwell

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #296 on: July 15, 2012, 01:02:42 PM »
What I know about this stuff could fill maybe an index card, but my understanding is that a basic tenet of the USA is a speedy trial and a fair and reasonable bond.  Since when can a judge use the bond ammount as punishment?  Mabe they do need a new judge, one that's fair and impartial and not a petty, small minded egotist.

To play the devil's advocate, who says that the judge is using this bail number as punishment?  Likewise, who is to say that the bail the judge set is not fair and reasonable?  If GZ had no possible way of making bail, you could argue that the bail figure was set too high.  However, it took GZ about a day to post his updated bail, so it's a bit hard to say that it was a completely unreasonable bail requirement.  Frankly, if you read the judge's order, he doesn't say anything that harsh about Zimmerman, certainly nothing to qualify him as a "petty, small minded egotist" in my book.  You can read the opinion here if you wish (http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/SKMBT_363-V12070510360.pdf), though it's not that interesting.

Also, just because a judge has a few "harsh" words to say about someone doesn't mean he's incapable of fairly deciding other issues.  Here, just about the harshest thing the judge said is that GZ "flaunted the system" when he lied about his assets at the bail hearing, while he communicated with his wife using code words to shuffle the funds around between their bank accounts on the side.  While the judge's order isn't 100% flattering of GZ, why would it be when it's responsive to GZ lying at a bail hearing. 

In short, I would really resist the temptation to bash the judge unless and until you really have reviewed all the facts and the statements the judge made (in context).  Truth be told, having just read the order, I have a hard time seeing how the label of a "petty, small minded egotist" applies to this judge.  As I've said several times here, increasing the bail amount once GZ made misrepresentations at the bail hearing was the right call. 

Offline DenStinett

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #297 on: July 18, 2012, 04:10:45 AM »
I read today that the Judge was complaining now
He feels he?s getting a bad rap from all this negative press he?s been getting
I swear, we should just call him ?Judge Ito? from now on
He?s probable spending more time on his new book that reading Briefs from the case
So tell me again how Trump was worse then the 8 years before .... AND what's coming after HIM !

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #298 on: July 19, 2012, 12:22:53 AM »

Offline armed hiker

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Re: Trayvon Martin case: FL stand-your-ground law on trial
« Reply #299 on: July 19, 2012, 03:27:58 PM »
"I read today that the Judge was complaining now
He feels he?s getting a bad rap from all this negative press he?s been getting"

Boy maybe he and Zimmerman should start a support group.
Negative press?