Help with 9mm Minor Load Data for Lead Bullets & Titegroup

[1SOW]

noylj:  Very Good point.  Start low and work up to the safe published load that makes you and your gun happy.

jwc007:  What you and your guns prefer is precisely why reloading is such a great hobby.   My experiences with 9mm agree with yours as far as accuracy goes.  Well into mid-range usually gives the most precise accuracy.  The games, the loads, the guns and how they are set up are all part of the shooting enjoyment for each shooter.     

[Pensfan]

Thank you everyone for the great insight both here and in the PMs I received!  Tonight is day one of my two day reloading class and I am greatly more prepared for it now after the extensive reading and research that was helped through here. 

Now for more of a generic question...  I am building loads for USPSA 9mm Minor power factor and I am on a tight budget so unfortunately I can't try out hundreds of different powders.  I have four now, Titegroup, W231, WST, & WSF.  Of those four I will be able to test out different loads, test for cleanliness, felt recoil, push vs snap recoil, lead vs jacketed bullets, etc.

Outside of those powders listed above, is there another powder that would be worth adding to the stock at home, or should these give me a good sample to work from?  I would love to try VV N320 based on the reviews I see for it, but it is expensive and hard to find.  Any others?

Thanks again for all the help.  I have learned a ton before I pull my first real rounds even!

[recoilguy]

Everyone has a favorite for one reason or for another. You have 4 popular and easy to aquire powders that have a lot of available data about them. I would work through what you have and see if you like or don't like them. The thing that confuses most new people is all the choices. I have a buddy who is getting into reloading. He asked me what to use so I told him what my favorite components are. He then went on line and talked to a few other guys. Needless to say he was full of questions like should I try #5 or why would so and so say Brand X is best but use the same primers as you do? He just got information overload before he even made his first 100 good bullets. I then told him why I use what I use and told him to ask others the same. If the reasons are what you want from your ammo take note. If not thank them for their valuable advice and move on.

My advice is as follows:

Use the powders you have, all will produce minumum power factor bullets and before you buy more of different, decide if you like what you have. Get to know the machine, the dies, and the components that make your bullets. Get comfortable loading and be sure you can properly set up and consistantly run your equipment. Stick with what you like for a while and get good at making a bullet you like, everyone likes different recipes for different reasons. Once you are confident and know if you make a new bullet but don't like it you can always go back to the one you do like you will be golden. Every component is different for every loader, every shooter and everry gun. Make what works best in your machine, that you shoot well and performs in your weapon. That should be your go too load.

Follow the guidelines others have put forth IE hotter powders and lead, it really is good advice to stay away from that. Hotter powders and FMJ's that is not bad and can work very well for some people. Like me I perfer that type of load.

Before you wonder about all the components please be sure you know how to set up and run your machine. Be sure you have a manual or advice from the web site of the powder you are using. My advice is an opinion not a recomendation. So is every other shooters. Check and double check consistancy in powder drop and OAL until you are confident. Then continue to check you just can do so with a little less frequency. Good Luck make some bullets then make some noise. Be safe.

RCG

[jwc007]

+1 to what recoilguy said!  You currently have a good selection to choose  from and experiment with.  Try them one by one and see what works best for you!

jwc007:  What you and your guns prefer is precisely why reloading is such a great hobby.   My experiences with 9mm agree with yours as far as accuracy goes.  Well into mid-range usually gives the most precise accuracy.  The games, the loads, the guns and how they are set up are all part of the shooting enjoyment for each shooter.   

Thankyou!  I quite agree! 

[1SOW]

As a bottom line recommendation for you,  I recommend "starting" with the Win 231 and working up for whatever "Production Class" or minor power factor bullet you choose to try.
Win 231 is very "forgiving" for a new reloader. 
After you have some reloaded rds under your belt, try your WST and then other powders.  You'll have the 231 experience to compare reults.

JMO.  Enjoy, and stay safe.

P.S.  I use the Pro-Chrono too.  I tested a new "hot load" AGAIN today.  I did discover that the sun moves .  That durn thing crept over the shooting bench roof and was half ON and half OFF my chrono (front to rear of the windows).  My miracle loads were reading 300 FPS "FASTER" than they should have.
I pulled the chrono back 3' into the shade, and the loads checked fine.

[Pensfan]

Thanks again for all the advice and recommendations everyone! 

Last night was my first half of the NRA Reloading Metallic Cartridges class.  I have to admit, most of it was just a regurgitation of the advice I have received in here haha.  Tonight is the second half and we will be setting dies and making 10 .45 rounds. 

So by tomorrow or Friday I should be firing up the ammo plant and testing some rounds.  Now a question on how to effectively develop a load...  I plan on making 10 rounds of each ammo with a single variation change to best track performance.  How is the best way to go about that?  Changes to OAL first?  Powder charge first?

Using the Xtreme plated 9mm 124gr I have on hand, I drop tested for max OAL and came up with 1.1995 as the most common number.  Making the adjustments and drawing back the max OAL should be 1.18".  Using published data from Hogdon's Data Center site (125 GR. SIE FMJ, W231, 4.4gr, 1.090", 1009fps)

Where should I start with adjustments first?  Using the 1.09" OAL and increasing it 0.01" every 10 rounds, or making the adjustments to the powder 0.2gr every 10 rounds?

I will be logging everything via excel just not sure what to adjust first.  Is seating more important to get right before powder charge, reverse, etc?

[painter]

The way the czfirearms.us night school taught me is to stick with an OAL and make charge adjustments. Make 5 of each charge at a given OAL.

I don't know why Hodgdon develops their loads for the Sierra that short. Assuming that Xtreme bullet is a RN, and I suspect it is based on the push test, I'd load it at 1.14 and start with a charge of 4.6 gr using Dr Wobbly's OAL tweak formula.

4.4/1.09 = x/1.14  X ends up being 4.6.

That said the good Dr will be by later and correct the errors of my ways.

The max OAL you came up with is the exact same number I did with my 85 Combat. Of course that length won't fit in the magazine.

[1SOW]

painter +1

Try to limit your "variables".  Pick a reasonable oal and adjust the powder in steps from low to higher.

You didn't say which powder you are going to try first.

If the powder's load range (starting load to maximum load) is very narrow make small increases. If it's a fairly wide load range then .2grs steps is good.

Keep us posted.

[noylj]

A good powder will be good over a wide range. Unless the charge weight is less than 2 grains, 0.2gn up or down is just not going to be noticed. The big variable, despite the magazines, is if the gun is in the exact same position for each shot.
Let's say you want to try 231/HP38 and Unique in a given pistol cartridge and, just to throw some numbers out, you have the following:
Manual XXX: 231/HP38 3.5gn start 5.5gn Max
Unique 4.2gn start 6.5gn Max
Manual YYY: 231/HP38 3.8gn start 6.0gn Max
Unique 3.9gn start 5.3gn Max
I would load 3.5gn and 4.5gn of 231/HP38 and 3.9gn and 5.0gn of Unique to start.
This would be my start for determining the most accurate powder and load. I would have to load at a minimum of 15 rounds three 5-shot groups) at each charge weight to have any hope of knowing statistically what the real accuracy of each load is, and 25 rounds would be better (five 5-shot groups).
Too many folks work up by 0.1gn or 0.2gn and end up with numbers like this:
3.5gn: 2.57"
3.6gn: 3.89"
3.7gn: 1.57"
3.8gn: 2.89"
3.9gn: 1.76"
4.0gn: 4.56"
and they become convinced that 3.7gn and 3.9gn are the only accurate loads and that they must weigh their charge weights to 0.05gn or less to be accurate. In reality, they would have probably gotten the same sort of spread firing six 5-shot groups at any of those charge weights.
If you are working for a power factor, where the most accurate load is not a goal, then you need to determine from the manuals what charge weight you estimate will get the velocity/power factor your want and then try 1)estimated load - 0.4gn, 2) estimate load, and 3) estimated load plus 0.3gn (my keyboard is not typing some characters and the "plus" symbol is one of them)--provided you do not exceed the lowest max load in a couple of manuals. Fire at least 5 shots and better to shoot 10 at each charge weight, plot the average velocity for each vs powder charge, and determine where on the straight line plot is your power factor/velocity goal--then go back (especially if you find your estimate was off) and try that charge weight and up and down 0.2gn. Of course, your findings may not need this level to reach your "exact" goal.
For all guns, you can theoretically do a "ladder test, but the shots need to be at about 3X your normal distance to be really effective (i.e., for 100 yds rifle, you really need about 300 yds to show real differences and for pistol you need about 100 yds). This is all based on the "ideal" combination placing all rounds up and down about 0.5gn or more from the "perfect" load to all land at almost the exact same spot. Lots of folks do this, determine the "ideal" charge weight, and then think they have to load to at least 0.1gn of that charge weight for accuracy at the original targetted distance (100 yds or 25-50 yds), forgetting that the basis for their ideal load was that there was almost no difference in point of impact at many times the charge weight variance at a much longer distance.
In short, you can not tell anything from one 5-shot group and you will almost certainly NEVER find the exact ideal bullet, powder, and charge weight as no one lives that long and no barrel lasts that long. Set a goal and be happy when you achieve it. Then, it is just time behind the trigger...

[1SOW]

noylj,  I don't disagree working the full spectrum of the load range; but the OP said he wanted a "minor PF" not just optimum accuracy.
He only asked for one end of the load range.

[Wobbly]

1. Pick a caliber
45ACP is a low pressure round and VERY forgiving. 9x19 is high pressure requiring a few more tricks, but costs a lot less. Sooner or later you'll be forced to do the same procedure for BOTH rounds. Just pick one you have the components for and put the other completely aside. Master a single caliber first.

2. Build "test cartridges"
If you are unsure of an OAL, pick a higher number between the 2 limits and build a longer "test cartridge" with case and bullet ONLY. Put the TC in the mag and sling shot the slide. Did it feed? You can reseat the bullet .010" deeper and try again if you like. After all these trials, pick an OAL for each particular bullet and stay with it until hell freezes or poor feeding makes you change your mind.

3. Go by the book
If your published load is "3.9 to 4.9gr", then load: 6-8 rounds at 3.9gr, 6-8 rounds at 4.1gr, 6-8 rounds at 4.3gr, 6-8 rounds at 4.5gr, and 6-8 rounds at 4.7gr. (We don't mess with the top end.) Label them VERY clearly.

 



4. Shoot them
Starting with the lowest and working up, shoot them at something like 30 feet, each group at a fresh target from a supported position. Be sure and transfer the label on the ammo to the targets. Stop when the pressure signs get excessive and disassemble the remaining rounds.

5. Judge them at home
Take all your targets home. I like to throw out the worst shot on each, but I also collect stray cats and Sasquatches. Study them under a light with a caliper. The lowest load that gave the smallest group is what your gun likes. Later on, you can go up 0.1gr or more if they are not fast enough for competition.



6. Mark it down
You won't remember these details after 5 or 6 different test sessions, SO WRITE IT DOWN. Set aside 1 full page for each bullet in a reloading notebook. List the bullet details and OAL on the first 10 lines, then all the powders you tried below that.

7. Have fun
Enjoy. Now you can load hundreds knowing you developed the best load for your gun that is also the most economical.

8. 2 powders
If you have 2 different powders for 1 caliber you can develop them side-by-side using the same method, but your labeling must be really good. You might find 1 of these is preferable over the other at low speeds. You might see the other excel at higher speeds. Maybe a difference in smoke, recoil, muzzle flash, or other minor annoyance. You never know.

 

[johnnyrees]

Bravo Wobbly....cut straight through all the waffle with something consise

[Pensfan]

Thanks for the great testing info.  I have made up 50rds to test today or tomorrow depending on the weather and will be using this approach.  I have a question about the OAL recipe vs what I am using for my CZ. 

My drop/plunk test for the Dardas 124gr Lead RN bullets resulted in a Max OAL of 1.18" (1.995" - 0.15" ~ 1.18").  I found load data for Winchester WSF powder and 124gr LRN with OAL's of 1.169" with Min/Max grain loads of 4.0gr - 4.7gr.  After research and testing varying OAL dummy rounds in my CZ 75B, I am starting with an OAL of 1.10".

10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 3.8gr, 1.10" OAL
10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 4.0gr, 1.10" OAL
10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 4.2gr, 1.10" OAL
10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 4.4gr, 1.10" OAL
10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 4.6gr, 1.10" OAL

So the question...  Since I am wanting to drop the OAL from the load data of 1.169" to 1.10", should I go lower on the powder to make up for the increased pressure from seating lower?  Or should I pull and seat at 1.169"?  Or should I just start at 4.0gr per the Winchester Load Data?

Seating / OAL length is still the one thing that I am not 100% sure on.  Lower seating can increase pressure obviously, but how much more so does it and does changing the seating lower mean you have to change the powder charge?

Thanks!

[painter]

Thanks for the great testing info.  I have made up 50rds to test today or tomorrow depending on the weather and will be using this approach.  I have a question about the OAL recipe vs what I am using for my CZ. 

My drop/plunk test for the Dardas 124gr Lead RN bullets resulted in a Max OAL of 1.18" (1.995" - 0.15" ~ 1.18").  I found load data for Winchester WSF powder and 124gr LRN with OAL's of 1.169" with Min/Max grain loads of 4.0gr - 4.7gr.  After research and testing varying OAL dummy rounds in my CZ 75B, I am starting with an OAL of 1.10".

10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 3.8gr, 1.10" OAL
10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 4.0gr, 1.10" OAL
10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 4.2gr, 1.10" OAL
10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 4.4gr, 1.10" OAL
10rnds 124gr LRN, WSF 4.6gr, 1.10" OAL

So the question...  Since I am wanting to drop the OAL from the load data of 1.169" to 1.10", should I go lower on the powder to make up for the increased pressure from seating lower?  Or should I pull and seat at 1.169"?  Or should I just start at 4.0gr per the Winchester Load Data?

Seating / OAL length is still the one thing that I am not 100% sure on.  Lower seating can increase pressure obviously, but how much more so does it and does changing the seating lower mean you have to change the powder charge?

Thanks!

Yes you should lower the charge.

According to the Hodgdon site the starting load at 1.169 is 4.0 of WSF for a LRN.

The same formula Mr.W uses for for tweaking the length works (4/1.169 = x/1.10). The starting load would be 3.76 gr...I'd round down to 3.7. Since the load range is .7 gr the new max would 4.4.

You'd need to chrono your loads to determine if you were getting the desired results.

If you don't mind me asking, why so short? Most LRN feed and function fine at longer OAL. Most times we need to shorten OAL with FP and HP projectiles because of the  short CZ leade.

[Pensfan]

The max OAL according to a drop test is around 1.18", my factory ammo and Atlanta Arms & Ammo is all 1.15". According to all the research and reading I have found, CZ 75B's shoot great with OALs around 1.08"-1.10". I want to start testing to find that sweet spot so I would like to start on the high end of that range.

Again though... these are my first rounds so I am still learning and open to all input.  Other than pressure issues, does going shorter on the OAL affect anything else?  Longer affects mag feeding obviously, but I am still unsure why so many people say CZs shoot better with the 1.08"-1.10" OAL.