Author Topic: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL  (Read 6395 times)

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Offline dspmo5

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Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« on: April 21, 2012, 07:27:22 AM »
 I have a CZ  75 SP01 custom 9mm and have been reloading for several months now and have used advice many times from the CZ Forum. I am registered but am a not much of a active participant. I need some expert advice - I just loaded Hornaby XTP 115 gr under VN-330 at the recommende OAL of 1.142 and the listed starting load of 4.8 gn. I failed to initially do the push test and to my bad the first round jammed in the chamber. I now have determined the OAL of the XTP to be a MAX of 1.095 and minus a recommended .015 I am now at 1.08 ,which is not a reliable OAL since Remington UMC at the same OAL won't feed consistently in my SP01. Hence two questions :
1. As long as the round spins/falls out/chambers/feeds can I increase the OAL so as not compress the powder excessively ?
2. As to above how do I determine the correct starting load ? I have searched all day and no luck. (I am not much on experimenting with high pressures :)
Any help would be appreciated.

Offline painter

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2012, 07:30:45 AM »
I asked the same question a while back, and this is what Wobbly said...

Within short OAL changes you can proportionalize the load, but you MUST (absolutely MUST) begin at the new "starting load".

 5.2         X
-----  =  -----
1.060   1.020

So the new "starting load" becomes 5.0gr.  Just for safety, and since Unique does not display bad habits at low loads, you might even begin at 4.8 or 4.9gr.

This cartoon comes close to explaining....



? This is one case where a chrono becomes invaluable. If you can shoot the standard "starting load" in another gun, then you can easily correlate your new starting load "guesstimate" with velocity readings.

? Then, as always, you'd work up in incremental steps. For this load, maybe 0.1gr steps would be safer to start.

? Since the old Max Load was +0.6gr, the new max load becomes 4.9 + 0.6 or 5.5gr.

 ;)
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2012, 09:12:03 AM »
Mr MO5 -

Welcome aboard !

? Just for your comfort, first let me say that your OAL calculations match mine exactly as recorded in my reloading notebook on 4/12/2008. So you have done your homework correctly. (This is one good reason to keep a reloading notebook.) So you are on the right track.

? Bullet feeding is a combination of MANY variables; length is just one of many. So I would not jump to any conclusions about a certain OAL working or not, without trying it. Conversely, you could have a nice long OAL and find that a slightly shorter one worked more reliably after shooting thousands of rounds. You just never know.

On to your questions.....
1) Adding length to a round totally depends upon the tolerances YOUR press delivers. If 50 rounds of your ammo has a total OAL spread of .020", then 'no' you cannot lengthen. But if you measure 50 rounds and the total OAL spread is .003", then 'yes', you can subtract less than the .015" I recommended and lengthen the OAL.

It's a tolerance study. The object of subtracting .015" is to make sure ALL the ammo works; the short ones and the long ones. Follow that ?

2) As our mutual friend Mr. Painter pointed out, since the starting load is way below the limit, you can proportionalize the load and start working up from the new calculated starting load numbers. This is NOT a perfect answer!! You may find that the calculated starting now lands in the middle of the actual "new" load range, but I'd hardly expect to be so far off that you blow your self up.

It also stands to reason that if the new starting load for the shorter round is (say for instance) 0.8 grains lower, then the new max load will ALSO be 0.8 gr lower!! This since the load range is a "window". If you mounted a 30 inch high window up near the ceiling in your home, you don't necessarily get a better view or more light, you simply get the same 30 inches of window at a different level. So the bullet and powder determine the size of the window; we're now going to adjust the position of that window. Follow?

So mathematically, your new load becomes...

(Book starting load) x (New OAL),  all divided by (Book OAL).  That will give you the new "starting load". Use reason. If you are shortening the OAL, then you would expect the load to go down. If your calculated number is higher, then something is wrong.

Working from the calculated numbers, you must work up slowly from there in 0.2gr increments until you find an appropriate load. A chrono helps a lot when doing this.

Hope this helps!  ;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 07:50:30 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline dspmo5

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2012, 09:44:44 AM »
Thanks all for the replies. I will do the calculations and test the variances.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »
One thing for a new reloader to get through their head is this...

What's in the books or on the powder maker's web page is NOT "the" load. It's the safe window in which to work so you can find your load. There are too many variables for anyone to say "Oh yea, 4.3gr of XXX is the perfect load with a 124gr bullet." That's just crazy talk.

So the best anyone can do is find a safe load range to work within. That's why rough calculations like the above work OK. It's only giving you the new position of the "load window". It's still up to you to work out what a particular bullet/ powder/ barrel combination likes best.

That's another way of saying that if you change the bullet, powder or barrel (any of the 3), then you have to start all over again.

 ;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 08:08:23 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline 1SOW

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2012, 12:51:13 AM »
re:
Quote
I failed to initially do the push test and to my bad the first round jammed in the chamber. I now have determined the OAL of the XTP to be a MAX of 1.095 and minus a recommended .015 I am now at 1.08 ,which is not a reliable OAL since Remington UMC at the same OAL won't feed consistently in my SP01.

Because one "BULLET" won't feed at that oal, does not mean another won't.  The bullet itself is a major factor on it's ability to feed properly.
The Berry's hollow point is a good example.  Many find it needs to run at oals much shorter than 1.08, but feeds and shoots fine.
The UMC cartridge in general seems to cause problems for many CZs.

Offline Cesar

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2012, 01:14:01 AM »
I load XTPs at 1.09" and they work in my SP-01 and 75SA without issues.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2012, 05:01:20 AM »
I failed to initially do the push test and to my bad the first round jammed in the chamber. I now have determined the OAL of the XTP to be a MAX of 1.095 and minus a recommended .015 I am now at 1.08 ,which is not a reliable OAL since Remington UMC at the same OAL won't feed consistently in my SP01.

Because one "BULLET" won't feed at that oal, does not mean another won't.  The bullet itself is a major factor on it's ability to feed properly.
The Berry's hollow point is a good example.  Many find it needs to run at oals much shorter than 1.08, but feeds and shoots fine.
The UMC cartridge in general seems to cause problems for many CZs.

Excellent point. It's fairly common to load the Berry 124gr FP at 1.065, which feeds fine in the SP-01. This image has been bouncing around here for several years now...



In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline dspmo5

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2012, 03:27:55 PM »
Thanks for all the great advice and experience sharing. Loaded 15 Hornady XTP 115 grain at 1.09 OAL and 4.6 gn VN-330. Today at he range had great performance and accuracy - 100% function   :) Now I have the confidence and knowledge to expand my reloading horizons. Thanks again to all !

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2012, 08:34:16 PM »
Congrats !!

Just keep those low monthly payments coming.  ;D


N330 is fairly hard to find, but it is GREAT stuff. It may be the most perfect 9mm powder out there if you want to work over 1040 fps. I love the stuff and do a lot of SD practice loads with it. If you're loading it right, your gun will come back from the range with just a light coating of soot.

Enjoy.
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Offline dspmo5

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 09:23:56 AM »
Just bought Hornady 124 grain XTP,but no load data to be found using VN-330. So by reviewing Lee Modern Reloading and Vihtavuori load date I compared 115 grain XTP,Plated and jacketed data and 124 Plated and Jacketed data to arrive at a range of 4.1 & 4.3 to 4.8 to 4.7 respectively and OAL 1.09 as in the above post information. Am I on the right track ? Has anyone loaded Hornnady XTP 124 with VN- 330 and oal of 1.09 ?




Offline Wobbly

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 09:42:06 AM »
Just bought Hornady 124 grain XTP,but no load data to be found using VN-330. So by reviewing Lee Modern Reloading and Vihtavuori load date I compared 115 grain XTP,Plated and jacketed data and 124 Plated and Jacketed data to arrive at a range of 4.1 & 4.3 to 4.8 to 4.7 respectively and OAL 1.09 as in the above post information. Am I on the right track ? Has anyone loaded Hornnady XTP 124 with VN- 330 and oal of 1.09 ?

This is where "reloading" really starts.

The VV reloading guide lists a 124gr Hornady FMJ-FP at 1.142" and with N330 from 4.8-5.2gr.

That's what the XTP is, a Hornady 124gr FMJ flat point.

Reducing the load, we get a "starting load" of 4.4gr.  With a total window of 0.4-0.5gr.

Therefore, I'd step up in increments of 0.1gr.

 ;)
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Offline dspmo5

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 10:39:11 AM »
Mystery solved - no wonder I couldn't find any load data listed under Hornadt XTP 124 grain. Using your previous formula I actuall get closer to 4.6 (4.58) than 4.4 at 1.09,but safer is better. Thanks -  :)

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 01:24:08 PM »
Using your previous formula I actually get closer to 4.6 (4.58)....


Yea. I know. I'm a wimp.  ;D

I considered the narrow load range of 0.4gr and thought that too narrow. So in a situation like this, I'd simply load a single round at 4.5gr and shoot it. You'll know right off if you're in the bottom, middle, or high end of the range.

Oddly, the v7 Hornady book lists a load for N350, but no other VV powder.  ???

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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Need help with Hornady XTP OAL
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 08:07:08 PM »
So I had some time this PM and loaded this round up myself. I used an OAL of 1.085", scale-weighed 4.4gr of N330, and a Wolf primer...



I suspected the VV data might be a little more toward the hot side and I was right. This was not a typical 90% "starting load" which barely moved the slide. This was a nice, soft round, which didn't have any issues pushing the slide around on my SP-01 Tac with 12# return spring. I'd rate it maybe as high as 93-94%.



The medium hard Wolf primer still has its rounded edges....



But it was still good enough to burn very cleanly. Note the ash-gray interior....



So the calculations worked and got me in the zone.

You're going to love this round. Load 10 at 4.4, 10 at 4.5, and 10 at 4.6gr. Your answer is going to be in that range.

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

 

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