latest lead order tumbling

[theaccountant]

I've been shooting lead out of my 85 combat all summer.  Started with 125 TC/FP, got some 122 TCN, then some 147 FP, and even some 124 RN - all from different manufacturers.  I've been using Solo 1000 powder, a Dillon 550b, and Lee dies with the factory crimp die.  Never a tumbler and accuracy was just fine for USPSA matches/shooting.  Never got leading in the barrel, either - the barrel/gun gets dirty fast, but it's no big deal I spend 5 minutes after each range session/match cleaning it out.

I just got a couple thousand 147 FP's from a new (to me) caster.  I had used two different casters' 147's with success.  This new order was tumbling at least 3 out of 10.  So then:
- I read that I shouldn't be using the factory crimp die
- I read that I should back off my crimp
- I read that I should be loading longer
So I scrapped the FCD, backed off the crimp to where the crimp area measures .381", and loaded out to 1.145" - tumbling isn't as bad, but it's still 1/10.  I'm highly doubting that the FCD was any part of the cause because I measured a few cases before and after passing them through the FCD and they measure exactly the same after the FCD in the area where the bullet's base sits - can't see how the bullet could be getting "undersized" by the FCD when the measurements are exactly the same.  Previous brands of 147's I bought I loaded to 1.130" and didn't have any tumblers.  And I never had to let the crimp out to measure .381" with another brand.

I've also been told that:
- fast powders like Solo 1000 can make cast bullets tumble
- I need to slug my barrel and make sure the bullets I get are .001" > what the barrel slugs at

I never needed to do any of this with the previous two brands of 147's (or any other cast bullets) that I bought.  Every one of this latest order of 147's I've measured came in at .356"...which is the same as the 122's and 125's I've on hand to measure.  The only difference I can tell with these bullets versus the others that I've bought is that I can dig my fingernail into these whereas I cannot with any of the others - these are softer. 

Could it be the case that with softer bullets tend to tumble more than harder ones?  Or that the softer bullet maybe doesn't have more of a tendency to tumble, but is more sensitive to size in relation to barrel size than harder cast lead?  (meaning maybe I really should be shooting a .357 sized bullet, but it never showed up as an issue with harder castings?)

I'm scratching my head trying to figure this out...buddy with a Glock (with KKM barrel) bought the same bullets - when he shot my older bullets, no tumblers...with these, he's been through the same tumbling as me.

[1SOW]

- I need to slug my barrel and make sure the bullets I get are .001" > what the barrel slugs at

I'm NOT a lead shooter, but I've repeatedly read that lead needs to mic .001/,002" bigger than a slugged bbl.
Were "these new softer bullets" leaving any more lead in the bbl with the hot solo 1000 powder?
Have you chrono'd your load?

[jameslovesjammie]

Where is the leading at in the barrel?  Is it all towards the muzzle or is it even through the entire length of the barrel?

How do you know the bullets are softer?  Did the seller mention changing alloy?  If they do list an alloy, could you post what it is?  Have you noticed any change in the bullet lube?

The Lee FCD is just one variable to what COULD be going on.  Since you didn't use it in your last few cartridges, it is most likely not the culprit.  To check if the FCD is swaging down the bullets, measure one bullet before you load it.  Roll the bullet in the micrometer/caliper to see if there is a high/low.  Seat the bullet and run it with the FCD.  Then pull the bullet and measure it again.  If there is any change, the FCD is swaging down the bullet and needs to be readjusted. 

I know lots of questions, but they will help us diagnose the problem.

[theaccountant]

This "new" order of lead bullets is not leading my barrel at all as far as I can tell, and neither did bullets I shot previously...my barrel is dirty after a match/range session, but that's no different than with any of the other lead bullets I've shot.  I clean it after every match/range session, and all that comes out on the patchs is black dirt (same as with the other lead bullets I've shot.)  When I'm done, I see clean, sharp edges when I look down the barrel.

Seller didn't mention what kind of alloy he uses, and the way I *know* the bullets are softer is that I can put a big gash in them with my thumbnail...thumbnail doesn't even mark the other lead bullets I have.  I put "know" in asterisks because that might not be the most scientific way of measuring hardness and the thumbnail test could be meaningless for all I know.

The only difference I can tell is that these bullets are softer than previous ones I purchased from other casters.

[Wobbly]

Seller didn't mention what kind of alloy he uses, and the way I *know* the bullets are softer is that I can put a big gash in them with my thumbnail...thumbnail doesn't even mark the other lead bullets I have.  I put "know" in asterisks because that might not be the most scientific way of measuring hardness and the thumbnail test could be meaningless for all I know.

The only difference I can tell is that these bullets are softer than previous ones I purchased from other casters.

And that's the big issue with lead. When you shop around, like you're doing, you get different bullet sizes (fit) and lead alloys (hardness) with each order. That means you have to start your load testing from the beginning all over again. This development may point out you need a different powder or amount of powder (load) to make the bullet happy. The fact is, most bullet  casters are one-man, weekend businesses and they get their lead where ever they can. Sometimes from a junk yard, sometimes from the local tire repair and balancing shop, what ever they can scrounge up. Since materials are their largest cost, getting materials cheaply is a huge incentive, even if it means the quality is inconsistent.

You'd do well to read all the information on the Missouri Bullets web page about matching bullet hardness to bullet speed. Then you'd understand the need to go with a consistent supplier. MB is not the only good manufacturer of lead bullets out there, but the only one I know of that shares all the information you need to understand. He's the 4th largest bullet maker in the US and as such doesn't have time to visit the local junk yard looking for deals. All their lead is delivered to them in certified pre-alloyed ingots by national suppliers, a tractor trailer load at a time. You can see it all on their FaceBook page.

So what you need to do is focus on suppliers that deliver a known consistent diameter and hardness you can count on time after time. Once you find a supplier like that, then stick with them.

http://www.missouribullet.com/

 

[john16443]

I've had my own experiences with 9mm bullet tumbling as noted in this thread, post #19. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=600000

In addition to the information provided already concerning the determination of correct bullet sizing, I found that the only way I could get some bullets to not tumble was find the sweet spot related to powder charge AND COL.  That may be what you're finding with the 'new to you' 147 grain bullets.  Since these were Dardas Cast bullets (well known and respected supplier), Matt took a personal interest in helping me find a solution.  One of his first suggestions was to use a Lyman M die for expanding when loading lead bullets.  That helped my situation tremendously for all around lead bullet performance.  Also, shooting them at lower velocities decreased the tumbling.  Another finding was the need to use bullets of at least 0.3575" diameter.  The last suggestion I have would be moving to a slower powder.

[theaccountant]

No doubt I could switch back to another brand and stick with it and probably never have a keyholing/tumbling issue again.  I likely will do that once I get through this couple of thousand bullets.  While I'm getting through this couple of thousand bullets, I figure I might as well try to figure out what the problem is so that I can be more educated...and maybe, if I get these bullets to work, they can be the bullets I stick with going forward (easily the best price I've found on bullets - not that price is the only factor in this, but if I can get the same performance from a cheaper bullet, that means I shoot more guilt free.)

I read the technical section of the Missouri website - they basically said that harder isn't better - that harder could cause leading and accuracy issues, so their bullets are sort of not-too-hard and not-to-soft.  Basically, they say that the bullet has to be soft enough to deform to seal off the barrel but not so soft that lead is easily scraped off the bullet and attached to the barrel walls as it shoots down the barrel.

So for all I know, these softer bullets may be the 'better' hardness.  I didn't get any leading with the harder bullets, but that doesn't necessariily mean I was getting optimized performance - maybe the accuracy was lacking some and I wasn't noticing it because I 1) mainly shoot USPSA style even in practice and 2) when I shoot groups, I just automatically assume I'm the issue when a shot doesn't hit exactly where I want it.

So this gets me back to the original questions I had in this thread - are softer bullets more prone to tumbling?  Are they touchier when it comes to everything having to be perfect, but capable of higher performance than harder bullets once you've got everything right?  Is it more important to have the bullets fit the barrel better with softer bullets? 

I arrived at the above questions by process of elimination because everything else seems to be contradictory to me - I read harder can cause leading yet I used harder and had no leading...I read size makes a difference yet all of the bullets I'm using, newly purchased and previously purchased, measured .356"...I read that fast powders can cause tumbling, yet the same powder caused no tumbling with previously purchased bullets...I read that I shouldn't be using the factory crimp die, yet I used it all summer with other brands of lead and never had an issue plus I just measured cases at the bullet base before and after the FCD and found no difference in size...I read that the crimp needs to be backed off, yet it was fine with the previous brands I used...I read that some brands of bullets are junk, yet I'm pretty sure the latest batch is from a reputable source who shoots the bullets himself and he wouldn't be in business if everyone who bought bullets off of him had 3/10 bullets hitting the paper sideways. 

[painter]

There certainly are many variables.

Perhaps asking the caster/supplier for help would be the most expedient answer.

[theaccountant]

I did get the caster's opinion...he suggested no FCD, the increased OAL, the lighter crimp, and more bell when expanding the case mouth.  None of that stuff completely resolved the tumbling issue.  Helped some, but didn't completely resolve.

I'm just going to have to assume that softer bullets are more sensitive to the specifics of the loading process and change the last few things I know to change before giving up.

Tonight I'm going to shoot some loads with Winchester 231 (slower powder than Solo 1000.)
If that doesn't work, I'm going to try the Lyman neck expanding case die (recommended to me by Dardas, who I haven't tried as a supplier yet but will,)
If that doesn't work, I'll get a barrel slugging kit from meisterbullets and see what my barrel slugs at.

If any of that works, I'll use it as part of my process going forward.  If nothing works, I'll accept defeat and go to one of the brands that worked with no tumbling and not look back.

[painter]

Did the supplier suggest a powder/charge that was working for him?

[jameslovesjammie]

Sorry it took so long to respond, we were at Dr. appointments this morning.

This "new" order of lead bullets is not leading my barrel at all as far as I can tell.

The way I *know* the bullets are softer is that I can put a big gash in them with my thumbnail...thumbnail doesn't even mark the other lead bullets I have.  I put "know" in asterisks because that might not be the most scientific way of measuring hardness and the thumbnail test could be meaningless for all I know.

The only difference I can tell is that these bullets are softer than previous ones I purchased from other casters.

You did not get leading, thanks to the softer alloy.  Between a soft and hard alloy of the same diameter, the soft alloy is less apt to "lead" the barrel when pushed to handgun velocities.  Think of it this way; lead likes to stay together.  The softer alloy will conform to the shape of the barrel easier than a hard alloy.  This inturn seals the bore, preventing the expanding gasses from shooting past the sides of the bullet, causing molten lead to adhere to the bore.  Subsequent shooting causes additional buildup.

The problem is amplified with an undersized bullet.  When the cartridge goes off with a soft bullet, something called obturation can happen.  When the cartridge is fired, the pressure of the round going off can cause the bullet to seal the bore (even if undersized).  There are several theories on what actually happens.  Some say it is from the rear of the bullet accelerating at a faster rate than the nose.  Some say from the centrifugal force of the spinning bullet causes the projectile to expand (also becoming shorter) and sealing the bore.  I can't say that I know what exactly happens, all I know is that it has been proven to happen.  The soft bullet (even though initially smaller than the barrel diameter) swells out to fit it. 

A hard, undersized bullet does not want to obturate.  The soft bullet swells out and "bites" the rifling.  A hard bullet, however, will not.  Instead, it skids across the rifling until it finally grabs ahold.  When it is skidding, the bullet is leaving lead deposits.  This is why I asked if there was leading and where it was.  If leading was present all throughout the barrel, it was a good indicator that the bullet was too small.  If leading was only present at the muzzle of the firearm, it means that the lube on the bullet was running out.

And that's the big issue with lead. When you shop around, like you're doing, you get different bullet sizes (fit) and lead alloys (hardness) with each order. That means you have to start your load testing from the beginning all over again. This development may point out you need a different powder or amount of powder (load) to make the bullet happy. The fact is, most bullet  casters are one-man, weekend businesses and they get their lead where ever they can. Sometimes from a junk yard, sometimes from the local tire repair and balancing shop, what ever they can scrounge up. Since materials are their largest cost, getting materials cheaply is a huge incentive, even if it means the quality is inconsistent.

This may be true of some casters, but none in my area.  There are several "family operated" casting outfits here, most selling at gunshows.  If you are going to buy cast from ANYONE, make sure they list their alloy.  Almost all our local sellers buy their alloy from Rotometals by the pallet full and only use certified alloy.

Calling their bullet "hard cast" also doesn't mean anything.  "Hard Cast" is not a particular alloy type or hardness.  To some, anything over BN 12 is hard.  To others, 18-20 is hard.  Heat treated wheel weight alloy has been measured as hard as 22-24, which is harder than linotype, and almost as hard as monotype.  Two of the most common alloys for commercial casters are Lyman #2 (90% lead, 5% tin, 5% antimony) and Hardball (92% lead, 2% tin, and 6% antimony).  Lyman #2 runs BN 15 and Hardball runs BN 16.  The reason commercial casters use these alloys that are so hard has nothing to do with shootability...it is so they don't deform in shipping.

In addition to the information provided already concerning the determination of correct bullet sizing, I found that the only way I could get some bullets to not tumble was find the sweet spot related to powder charge AND COL. 

This is absolutely critical when using a small charge of a very fast powder like Solo 1000.  The same would apply to Bullseye, 700-x, or Titegroup.  In the range of suitable powders for 9mm, these are at the fast end of the scale.  Moving to a more moderate powder such as 231 or Unique will give you a wider sweet spot.  Remember, your bullets are not actually tumbling end over end.  They are not stabilizing and are yawing around a rotational axis.  The sweet spot is going to be where the acceleration of the bullet is allowing it to obturate while achieving the velocity needed to stabilize the projectile in flight.

One of his first suggestions was to use a Lyman M die for expanding when loading lead bullets.  That helped my situation tremendously for all around lead bullet performance.  Also, shooting them at lower velocities decreased the tumbling.  Another finding was the need to use bullets of at least 0.3575" diameter.  The last suggestion I have would be moving to a slower powder.

Lyman M dies great for cast bullets.  The only issue I have with mine (in .357 Mag) is that my seating die is RCBS, and they seem to have steeper angle on the die opening.  When I seat the bullet, it requires extra force because it is also reducing the diameter of the drastically belled case.

As far as bullet diameter is concerned, as mentioned earlier, "Fit is King" with cast.

[jameslovesjammie]

No doubt I could switch back to another brand and stick with it and probably never have a keyholing/tumbling issue again.  I likely will do that once I get through this couple of thousand bullets.  While I'm getting through this couple of thousand bullets, I figure I might as well try to figure out what the problem is so that I can be more educated...and maybe, if I get these bullets to work, they can be the bullets I stick with going forward (easily the best price I've found on bullets - not that price is the only factor in this, but if I can get the same performance from a cheaper bullet, that means I shoot more guilt free.) That is precisely why I cast my own.  It started with the economic factor, but has become more of a labor of love.  Plus I like that there is one less reloading component I am dependent on a manufacturer for.

I read the technical section of the Missouri website - they basically said that harder isn't better - that harder could cause leading and accuracy issues, so their bullets are sort of not-too-hard and not-to-soft.  Basically, they say that the bullet has to be soft enough to deform to seal off the barrel but not so soft that lead is easily scraped off the bullet and attached to the barrel walls as it shoots down the barrel.

So for all I know, these softer bullets may be the 'better' hardness.  I didn't get any leading with the harder bullets, but that doesn't necessariily mean I was getting optimized performance - maybe the accuracy was lacking some and I wasn't noticing it because I 1) mainly shoot USPSA style even in practice and 2) when I shoot groups, I just automatically assume I'm the issue when a shot doesn't hit exactly where I want it.

So this gets me back to the original questions I had in this thread - are softer bullets more prone to tumbling?  NoAre they touchier when it comes to everything having to be perfect No, but capable of higher performance than harder bullets once you've got everything right?  To a point, yes.  It really depends on how soft is soft and how hard is hard. Is it more important to have the bullets fit the barrel better with softer bullets?  As long as either bullet is .001-.002" larger than barrel diameter, you should be good to go either way.  However, reasonably soft bullets are more forgiving than reasonably hard bullets.

I arrived at the above questions by process of elimination because everything else seems to be contradictory to me - I read harder can cause leading yet I used harder and had no leading...I read size makes a difference yet all of the bullets I'm using, newly purchased and previously purchased, measured .356"...I read that fast powders can cause tumbling, yet the same powder caused no tumbling with previously purchased bullets...I read that I shouldn't be using the factory crimp die, yet I used it all summer with other brands of lead and never had an issue plus I just measured cases at the bullet base before and after the FCD and found no difference in size...I read that the crimp needs to be backed off, yet it was fine with the previous brands I used...I read that some brands of bullets are junk, yet I'm pretty sure the latest batch is from a reputable source who shoots the bullets himself and he wouldn't be in business if everyone who bought bullets off of him had 3/10 bullets hitting the paper sideways.

I have been trying to think of a way to word a response to your last paragraph.  The best thing I can think of is that you have had nearly the exact opposite experience of anyone who has ever had issues with shooting cast bullets.  Pretty much everything you stated in your last paragraph is spot on, except your experience.     I believe that you are having tumbling issues, and I think the cause, like mentioned above, is that you are outside that "sweet spot" for your particular combination.  I think there have been some really good suggestions so far in this thread as far as directions to go.  john16443's response was pretty much spot on for my recommendations.

To really find out what is going on, try to eliminate as many variables as you can.  Use the same headstamp brass, slug your barrel, and pull a bullet from a loaded round to see if the FCD is swaging anything down.  9mm brass varies GREATLY in thickness compared to other cartridges.  You may have good luck with one headstamp and terrible luck with another.  Either way, make it consistent.

[Wobbly]

The ideal hardness numbers are a range, not an exact number, but it's far cry from a mere guess. The best range of hardness can be calculated from formulas which have been known for decades. So there's no kind 'guess work' or 'feelings' or 'voodoo' involved. It's pretty dang scientific.

Hardness of lead is measured on the Brinell scale [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinell_scale ] and typically indicated as a "BHN" (Brinell hardness number) by the caster. If your caster is not telling you the number, then you can buy a portable Brinell hardness tester and get the number yourself. Lee offers such a tool. If the BHN wasn't necessary, then believe me they couldn't sell these tools.

My point is, you can't tell with your fingernail. And this is not some kind of guessing game. Granted, hardness is not the ONLY factor, but it remains one of several major factors in proper lead bullet performance, especially above 1000 fps.

 

[theaccountant]

Wow thank you guys so much for the responses.

I tried to shoot some reloads I made with W231 tonight - indoor range at my club was closed for a private class.  I had loaded 50 without using the factory crimp die and 50 using the factory crimp die.  The OAL was at the longer 1.145".  Crimp was light.  Shooting these bullets is my next step. 

I still don't understand what it is about these particular bullets that would cause them to tumble as opposed to others that I've used - only difference so far as I can tell is that they are softer, and the information you guys have provided indicates that softness shouldn't be the factor causing the tumbling. 

I'll throw one more thought that I had about these bullets - there was another bullet that I had that tumbled.  It was a 180 grain .40 bullet that I got at a gun show...also markable with my fingernail.  The other thing that this bullet had in common with the 147 tumblers I've got now is that it was a round nose flat point design.  Could THAT, the round nose flat point design, be a part of the issue?  Could that profile be more inclined to "yaw" (as another poster put it) in flight?  All of the other bullets I've used were either conical nose flat points, semi-wad cutters, or round noses. 

As a newer reloader with the cast bullet experience that I have explained in this thread, and after re-reading all of the posts in this thread, seems to me like it goes something like this:
- there are a whole lot of potential issues that could cause leading, tumbling, and accuracy issues shooting lead and there are alot of potential pieces of the reloading process that can be put in place to cut down the potential for having these issues  (stop using the FCD, lighter crimp, slugging the barrel and ordering .001 larger, slower powder, better case mouth expansion, longer OAL.) 
- some cartridge combinations may work despite not having the optimal cast reloading processes in place - it may never be known exactly why that is, and it's not really important...what's important is having a known combination that works
- some cartridge combinations won't work without having the optimal processes in place - in that case, you've got to put the optimal processes in place OR go back to the combination that worked

I'm headed down the road of improving my processes and getting a better understanding of loading cast bullets, so I'm going to put the improvements in place in steps and try some different things...in the meantime, I have combinations that already work that I can fall back on for matches in the current or if I get tired of tinkering.  I'll start with the slower powder and ordering round nose bullets from the same supplier - that'll give me some answers about whether fast powder or bullet profile factor into this tumbling problem.  Then I'll turn to slugging the barrel, the Lyman M die, and whatever other ideas I come across.

[Wobbly]

...to me like it goes something like this:
- there are a whole lot of potential issues that could cause leading, tumbling, and accuracy issues shooting lead and there are alot of potential pieces of the reloading process that can be put in place to cut down the potential for having these issues  (stop using the FCD, lighter crimp, slugging the barrel and ordering .001 larger, slower powder, better case mouth expansion, longer OAL.) 

I'd agree with your fine statement, except for that one bit about the crimp. "Roll crimp" in a revolver cartridge holds the bullet, therefore more roll crimp holds the bullet tighter. "Taper crimp", as used in almost all auto cartridges, has NOTHING to do with holding the bullet. It merely erases the belling so that the cartridge can fit into the chamber. With lead bullets, increased belling may be required, but this does NOT mean that more taper crimp is needed.



Amount of taper crimp is dictated by the gun's chamber dimension, and nothing else. Proper taper crimp on a 9mm cartridge typically runs in the range of .375 to .379", as measured on the last 1/32" of the case mouth.

Too much taper crimp COULD distort the bullet and/or case. The consequences of this action would be totally unpredictable since it would depend individually upon the alloy of both the case and bullet.