horniday loc-n-load vs lee classic turret?

[armed hiker]

Okay  I know this is a tough subject as everyone has brand preferences but I am looking at these two presses.

Widners has the lee classic turret press kit on sale right now for $204.00 plus shipping.
 
I see the horniday kit at Cabelas for 299.99 plus free 500 bullets and a 20.00 off coupon.

I know people seem to like them both but would like to get opinions from reloaders of pluses and minuses for either, just to make sure I don't miss something I should know about. I plan to add a progressive at some point down the road but and looking to start single stage with something I can pass on to my future reloaders.

About Me/my needs
1. limited funds (parent of 2 money sponges)
2. limited free time (see above)
3. would want to load for rifle as well as pistol
4. pistol calibers 7.62x25, 9x18,9x19, .44mag, .45acp  probably more to come
5. rifle calibers 3.08, 9.2x74r, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, 30-30 more to come as well

I like oddball guns and calibers but find myself not taking them seriously due to lack of ammo availability, I am interested in seeing how hard it would be to change this.

I am not a high volume shooter due to time constraints but hope that if I build a nice enough stock pile I will change that. It is far easier for me to get time after hours than during daylight. I must admit I find the need also to restrain my self as the more I research the more I find here to research. I am thinking next up will be casting lead soon followed by making powder ....lol

[Wobbly]

Welcome aboard !!


Please see this thread as for description and operation.....  http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=50685.0 and maybe even this one too... http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=50623.0

That should answer most of your questions. To me, most of the press choice questions hinge on your anticipated volumes and calibers, present and future. And only you can answer those questions.

You may get a lot of "Oh this press is great" type answers, but they are really addressing operation and fitness. I'll simply tell you that IMHO there are only 2 presses you should not consider: the Dillon Square Deal and the Lee Pro-1000. All the other hundreds of presses on the market are excellent products and well worth their price.... if they fit your caliber and volume requirements. But only YOU can decide that.

 

[RandyP]

As an owner and satisfied user of Lee products I have no problem stating that they are a great fit to MY needs and budget - and I would 100% agree with Wobbly's examples of the Lee press to avoid. lol

For many caliber changes I suspect that Lee will be more 'economical' than the very fine Hornady offering? Lee dies, spare turrets and even powder measures are inexpensive enough that most of us have complete turrrets set up with dies for each caliber we reload. You can of course achieve the same thing with all brands but they are most likely a bit more expensive.

As to volume,  I often post that at MY super relaxed pace I load 50-75 rounds per hour on my single stage and 150-175 per hour on my Classic turret. If I wanted I'm sure I could churn out 200 per hour, but I reload to relax, not achieve forced piece work - LOL

[john16443]

Armed hiker - I was in your position 2 years ago (my SO's the money sponge!) when I started reloading in 9mm and 45ACP.  I started with the Lee equivalent of the Hornady LNL classic kit you're considering.  It was the Lee 50th Anniversary Kit.  It, and some manuals and basic tools was all I needed to start making good, consistent ammunition.  I was loving life.... for about a month.  My volume requirements are about 300 rounds per week in these calibers, and with the batching operations required of a single stage press like the Hornady you're considering, I found I was spending too much time at the press, not able to spend time where I wanted or needed to.  I then purchased the Lee Classic turret press and life was good again.  It is an auto indexing turret press that allows you to produce ammo in complete batches without changing anything from start to finish.

Given what I know now, I would strongly steer you to the Lee Classic turret press.  Even at lower volumes, I believe you'll soo tire of having to change dies for every different step of the reloading process.  With the turret press, you load your primer feed, install your turret with dies in place, load your powder, adjust your powder measure, and pull the handle.  200 handle pulls plus inserting a new case and setting a bullet on top of the charged case will result in a completed box of ready to shoot ammo if you use all four die stations.  The beauty of this is that you are only handling a piece of brass and a bullet 1 time on the turret press.  On the single stage press, you're handling every piece of brass at least 3 or more time, plus every bullet 1 time.

Use the money you save with the Lee Classic Turret kit to:

Buy this electronic scale http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Gemini-20-Portable-Milligram/dp/B0012TDNAM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350585521&sr=8-1&keywords=gemini+20

Buy extra turrets for each caliber you're going to reload for about $10 each (now or later, up to you).  Set your dies once and be done.

Buy a good reloading manual or three.

Buy a digital caliper at Harbor Freight for about $10 or one of these on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pittsburgh-66541-6-Dial-Caliper-with-Case-NEW-/350623472052?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a2c999b4

Buy an inertial bullet puller for about $20

I like my Lee stuff, and still have that Lee single stage on my bench dedicated to case sizing.  As I've added more guns, my volume has increased, so now my reloading is done on a Hornady LNL AP, but you may not be there yet (Money, volume, etc.)

[czkali]

Ah yes, I remember this stage in my reloading career -- notice I didn't say fondly remember.
After a lot of reading and posting on this forum followed by some navel gazing and internet price checking, I ended up buying the Hornady LNL. If memory serves I convinced myself based on the following:

• Single stage would be simple and great press to cut my teeth on as a new reloader (focus on each step, etc.)
• Single stage always useful (or so I was told) in the future after buying a progressive
• Single stage would fit my hope of reloading for rifle later
• Fit my budget since I had to purchase dies, calipers, scale, case gauge, etc., etc.

That doen't mean these reasons are valid or fit your circumstances. I'm only shooting 300-400 per month max right now so high volume production didn't enter the equation. However now that I'm "up to speed" and comfortable reloading the single stage does get tedious -- essentially some of what John16443 said.
 
I can't speak from experience but others have told me you can run most, if not all, progressives as single stage presses. If that's true, experience/hindsight says I should have bit the bullet and bought the Hornady LNL AP from the beginning. So the only major benefit I see from purchasing the single stage LNL is for future rifle reloads and the "always good to have a single stage press" on your bench. So it's not like I've got a boat anchor on my bench -- just sayin'.
 
I feel your pain. If there's any advice I can give it' to view it as an investment and go bigger on your initial purchase if able. Oh yeah one last thing -- the kids only cost more going forward...
 

[jameslovesjammie]

My thoughts:

There is nothing that the Hornady LNL single stage press can do that the Lee Classic Turret can't.  The Lee Classic Turret can be operated as a single stage by removing the indexing rod (literally a 5 second change).  In semi-progressive operation, the Classic Turret is much faster.  Remember that with a single stage, you are doing one operation on whatever your quantity of cases, then switching dies and doing another operation, and so forth.  With the Classic Turret, you are doing all operations on one cartridge, then inserting another brass case and performing all operations on that cartridge.  The Classic Turret always gives you a finished round.  You pull the handle of the press the same amount of times, but the end result is more efficient operations, especially in primer insertion.

I'm not really a fan of kits...regardless of manufacturer.  As far as I am concerned, no one makes everything the best.  I prefer to piece together my own equipment.  It usually costs a little more, but I get everything I want to my personal specifications.  For example, with the Lee kit, I don't really like their powder scale so I use a RCBS 505.  I don't really like their powder measurer, so I use a Redding 3BR (which is substantially more expensive than my press itself) mounted to my bench.

Regardless of either kit you purchase, you should also buy a universal shellholder set.  Lee has a reasonably priced set for a reasonable price.

[armed hiker]

Alright.
First off thanks everyone it all sounds like good advice to me.

Wobbly
I had read both of those threads and that's what is getting me interested, I just went back and gave them a re-read. Good info in them but I still have a few questions. It was not on my list but I am curious why no to the square deal? I am fine with Mercedes or a Hyundai (prefer Lamborghini )as long as they are going to get the job done. I hope to buy quality once rather than have to replace something due to poor design.

RandyP
I must admit the more I read about the flexibility of the Lee turret The more attractive it sounds. I am sure just about anything would be fine but if I can learn a bit from those who have been there before I am all ears... not that that will help me looking at a computer screen.

john16443
Thanks, it sounds like we are on a similar path. I was originally thinking of a Dillon 550B because I fear at the rate I get alone time it would take a week to make a handful of rounds.The lee turret sounds like it is almost the best of both worlds, slow enough to learn to do things right and capable of some speed when I am capable of keeping mistakes to a minimum. I also like that I could set up multiple calibers on separate turrets and swap fairly easily.  I hope to be able to expand the calibers I load , you know buy some weird caliber firearm and actually be able to shoot it.

czkali
If the kids get any more expensive I told them I will have to part them out.... lol
This is what I have been questioning myself I was thinking of a Dillon 550B but they are hard to find used and a new one is not in the budget just yet. That said there is one I found locally used for $500 4 calibers 2 of which I don't have any need, this could be too costly as I would be prone to buying new guns to match the unused dies.
I have noticed more than a few are singing the praises of the Hornady LNL AP, I will have to do some digging on that as well. Not something I have seen on the used market as of yet. Are there benefits to them over the Dillon?

jameslovesjammie
Another vote for the Lee, starting to see why they are popular. I understand about buying individual vs kit form, sometimes selling kits are great because you can sell all those items no one would ever buy individually. I am certainly not opposed to putting my own kit together but keep in mind it is hard for a newbie to decide on a press let alone all the little bits that we may not understand why we should start with model X vs model Y.
My hope was to pick up a used kit from a seasoned pro who had already upgraded the important bits, that has not happened as it is an election year and it seems everyone and their neighbor is getting into reloading. Or maybe it is just the influence of Wobbly on this board 


Okay so now for the dirt.
What is it you do NOT like about
1. Lee classic turret
2. Lee's classic turret kit ( items I will want to replace soon)
3. Hornady's LNL
4. Hornady's classic kit

Should I be considering the Dillon 550B ( or Hornady progressive) as a newbie? I have started to hear I can use it as a single stage as well, is there a benefit to going this route  to start? I am understanding that they all take the same dies? Are any of them (brands/models) going to lock me into being tied to a "system" I do like flexibility. I also have no problem picking up a quality single stage until I get ready for a progressive some day.

I have many tools that serve as back-up or do the job just a bit different from the similar tools they each have their purpose in my tool box.I just hope to avoid buying model X on tool lust alone, been there I own snap-on ... lol.

Thanks again.

[czkali]

armed hiker,
 
I can't speak to LNL AP benefits compared to the Dillon, I have no experieince with any Dillon product (for that matter with any progressive press) except their scale which is built by Ohaus -- which I've had no issues with. I hear Dillon's no fuss warranty can't be beat. Unless the 550B was in Wobbly's no go list I'd seriously consider taking a look at it -- especially if the no questions asked warranty is what people say it is. The RL 550B lists at $450 new on the Dillon site I think.
 
As to what I don't like about the LNL:
 

• The one nuisance I've foudn is the primer cup tends to stick in the ram and I have to flick it out manually after loading 50-100 rounds. Cleaning out the groove in the ram fixes it for a while as it gets some gunk in it when the spent primers are pushed out.
• The Hornady LNL lock rings are a marketing thing. My guess is the turret plate (forget it's name) is better/more desirable as it keeps all the dies for a caliber set up in one unit -- not a major deal but I believe true. I'd like to hear from someone with a LNL AP if they like the simple twist lock rings in their AP.

Again with a single stage what I've grown not to like is the tedium of same step for every piece of brass in my reloading trays -- again at my round count per month it works. I dedicate a Sunday afternoon to it and I easily can put out 300 rounds in 3 hours without pushing it.
 
Overall I'm satisfied with the Hornady LNL in that it works well, produces at the rate I expected, and will serve for rifle reloading in the hopeful future. I don't know what learning curves I would have faced trying an AP as a new reloader so that's the unknown you face that other more experienced reloaders can answer.
 
So far I've bought Lee four die sets in 9mm and .40 S&W so they will work with most any progressive I choose to go to. So I'm not locked into a Hornady LNL AP. Interesting note here -- originally I thought I'd be all prepared to "easily" step into a LNL AP for just the cost of the press, e.g. I have everything but the AP. But it turns out you can't buy just the LNL AP -- it always comes with the powder measure which of course I already have.
 
Again hindsight being 20/20 I wish I would have bought the progressive from the start IF it can be made work a single stage while you learn.
 
That 550B is sounding pretty good ...

[RandyP]

The sole item in the Lee kit that I found 'finicky' is their beam scale. It IS very accurate but it is also kinda fussy to use. To eep my tired old eyeballs happy I picked up a $30 digital which more than serves my needs and I keep the Lee balance beam on my bench as backup. I also use the Harbor Freight $10 digital calipers with no negatives to report.

Yes they run on batteries and yes I buy them off a guy on e-bay for pennies a piece.

[john16443]

Okay so now for the dirt.
What is it you do NOT like about
1. Lee classic turret
2. Lee's classic turret kit ( items I will want to replace soon)
3. Hornady's LNL
4. Hornady's classic kit

Should I be considering the Dillon 550B ( or Hornady progressive) as a newbie? I have started to hear I can use it as a single stage as well, is there a benefit to going this route  to start? I am understanding that they all take the same dies? Are any of them (brands/models) going to lock me into being tied to a "system" I do like flexibility. I also have no problem picking up a quality single stage until I get ready for a progressive some day.

I have many tools that serve as back-up or do the job just a bit different from the similar tools they each have their purpose in my tool box.I just hope to avoid buying model X on tool lust alone, been there I own snap-on ... lol.

Thanks again.

First to address the question of the Hornady LNL bushings.  I like them, and they make changing dies a breeze.  They are essentially the same as the Lee Breech Lock fittings in my opinion and serve the same function.  Drop in, twist and you're done.  They are essential on the Hornady SS press.  The Lee Classic Turret doesn't need any type of bushing, the dies are screwed in and locked down one time and you're done.



Since I've used the Lee single stage breech lock, Lee Classic Turret, and Hornady LNL Progressive, I'll offer my input.  Since the Hornady single stage is nearly the same as the Lee, consider the following comments to apply to both unless stated otherwise.

Lee/Hornady single stage don't likes:
- forced to work in batches, just not my style.  Lowest production rate of any style press.
- have to handle components multiple times.
- The Lee primer dispenser didn't seem to feed the last couple primers out of the PEZ type dispenser.  So all I do is remove it, dispense a primer in my hand and place it in the cup.  Don't know about the Hornady.
- The Lee primer arm that is mounted on the ram may have a tendancy to stick in place, fall out, get damaged (mine have).  The solution is to break the corners off all edges and polish it.  My permanent solution was a zip tie around the press that prevents improper movement of the arm.  I think the zip tie would work for czkali's issue on his Hornady as well.

Lee Classic turret don't likes:
- have to make sure you properly advance the turret manually so that you don't ruin the plastic square washer that indexes the turret.  Press comes with 2, extras are 50 cents from Lee and I got them free.  Still have 3 new ones I could send you for nothing, just ask.
- the primer dispenser comment applies here.
- If you get the Lee, upgrade the powder dispenser to make sure you get the Lee Pro auto disk, and buy the adjustable charge bar for the pistol powders.  When you get to rifle, you'll have to buy the double disk kit to throw the higher powder charges.
- That primer arm thing applies to the turret press as well.

Hornady LNL Auto Progressive don't likes:
- caliber changes take longer than on the Lee Classic turret
- takes longer to load primers than the Lee presses
- Higher cost, harder to justify until volume increases to make it worth it.

Quite honestly, I love my LNL AP and am glad I bought it.  Would I buy it as a first press?  Yes, but recognizing that I would have a good learning curve of the entire reloading process before I ever ran it in progressive mode.  I think you recognize this, start slow, understand what your doing and what the press is doing, move up from there.  The only way to run it in single stage mode is with only 1 die in place, and removal and replacement of the case into that station where the die is located.  I don't think you can disable the auto indexing on the AP like you can on the Lee turret.  The Hornady warranty is essentially the same as the Dillon no bs.  You need a part, they send it to you for free.

Agree with the comments on the Lee scale, it's usable, but the electronic scale I referenced is essentially the same cost, and easier to use.  You'll need to add a usable pan to handle powder, I use the pan from my Lee scale.

[Wobbly]

Wobbly
I had read both of those threads and that's what is getting me interested, I just went back and gave them a re-read. Good info in them but I still have a few questions. It was not on my list but I am curious why no to the square deal? I am fine with Mercedes or a Hyundai (prefer Lamborghini )as long as they are going to get the job done. I hope to buy quality once rather than have to replace something due to poor design.

I really like the Dillon stuff and at one time considered an SDB (Square Deal model B) for myself as a 9mm-only press. So there's nothing wrong with the press itself. However, you specified future rifle and the SDB doesn't do any rifle. A lot of people don't catch that in the "small print" when they read about the SDB. Also, the selection of pistol dies available for the SBD are very limited, so if you wanted some weird pistol round like the Consul or Tokerev, you'd be out of luck. The SBD doesn't use standard dies, you are limited to the 10 or so Dillon offers and nothing else. These are mainly the top 10 competition rounds, so it's a press you can dedicate to your competition needs.

If you like the SDB price/quality, but can't do the fully loaded 550B, then look at the RL550 which is simply the 550B with the expensive powder hopper and primer feed assemblies stripped off. You can add those later and bring the RL up to full 550B specs as your budget allows.

My hope was to pick up a used kit from a seasoned pro who had already upgraded the important bits, that has not happened as it is an election year and it seems everyone and their neighbor is getting into reloading. Or maybe it is just the influence of Wobbly on this board 


Okay so now for the dirt.
What is it you do NOT like about
1. Lee classic turret
2. Lee's classic turret kit ( items I will want to replace soon)
3. Hornady's LNL
4. Hornady's classic kit

Should I be considering the Dillon 550B ( or Hornady progressive) as a newbie? I have started to hear I can use it as a single stage as well, is there a benefit to going this route  to start? I am understanding that they all take the same dies? Are any of them (brands/models) going to lock me into being tied to a "system" I do like flexibility. I also have no problem picking up a quality single stage until I get ready for a progressive some day.

? You're going to pay just as much for used Dillon and brand new Dillon, this because the press is always under full warranty, no matter the previous history. If a hurricane blows a rusted hulk of a 550 into your front yard, then it's under full warranty and will be repaired. No one discounts Dillon new, only the shipping. So the prices are highly stable. Yes, you can use a 550 as a single stage.

? You can get a great deal on a used Hornady AP, but.....   1) Part of the attraction is the free bullets, which the second buyer doesn't get, and 2) the auto advance on a Hornady AP cannot be defeated, so it can't ever be used effectively as a single-stage.

? Nothing wrong with Lee equipment one bit. It's inexpensive but it works. The presses are marvels of efficient design. Where they tend to cut corners the greatest is on the accessories. Most everything on the accessories is plastic. That can lead to some premature breakage and issues with static in certain areas of the country. Lee sort of makes the Volkswagen Beetle of the reloading world. Not exactly the vehicle of choice to take your family of 8 across the US in, but good enough to get 1 person through 4 years of college. So it really depends on your need for "features". If you see your reloading as "commuting", then you'll do well with Lee. If you see your reloading as the equivalent of "road warrior salesman", then you might desire some GPS and power steering. A lot of people are happy with the Lee presses when combined with "up scale" accessories. That would easily get you into the 4-door Buick range.

Of course, I'm referring to our good friend Jameslovesjammie.

 

[jameslovesjammie]

? Nothing wrong with Lee equipment one bit. It's inexpensive but it works. The presses are marvels of efficient design. Where they tend to cut corners the greatest is on the accessories. Most everything on the accessories is plastic. That can lead to some premature breakage and issues with static in certain areas of the country. Lee sort of makes the Volkswagen Beetle of the reloading world. Not exactly the vehicle of choice to take your family of 8 across the US in, but good enough to get 1 person through 4 years of college. So it really depends on your need for "features". If you see your reloading as "commuting", then you'll do well with Lee. If you see your reloading as the equivalent of "road warrior salesman", then you might desire some GPS and power steering. A lot of people are happy with the Lee presses when combined with "up scale" accessories. That would easily get you into the 4-door Buick range.

Man, Wobbly.  It's like you wrote this for me!



I absolutely love my Lee Turret Press.  I'd compare it more to a 4x4 Chevy truck than a Buick, though.  It may not be the prettiest, it may not be the fastest, it may not be the most fashionable, but it will always get you where you want to go.  As you can see, the only Lee accessory I use is the Safety Prime system.  Once you get the hang of it, it is fast and accurate.  I run a RCBS 505 scale because I don't like the Lee, and I use a Redding 3BR measurer.  I had it before I bought the press, and couldn't see buying a $40 Lee powder measurer when I already had a $140 benchrest grade measurer.  I actually like my setup better than if I were running it on the press.  It may be a little slower, but after I bell the case, I remove it, re-inspect the primer, drop the powder charge, and visually inspect the powder charge before reinserting the case.

How much rifle are you planning to actually reload?

Also remember that part of the reason that those Blue presses are so expensive is that you are paying upfront for any parts that get damaged or broken in the future.  That's how they can fund their "No BS Warranty".  They don't lose money when they replace broken parts.

[Wobbly]

Man, Wobbly.  It's like you wrote this for me!

I fixed my post. 

[armed hiker]

Okay so the Dillon sold so that's off the radar .... for now. Back to the task at hand.


Is the lee turret as good at being a single stage press as the Hornady? By this I mean if when I end up with a progressive later on will I be just as happy with either the lee turret or the Hornady as my single stage. Will they both load a gazillion different cartridges?

The Lee turret is looking good, Hey I started out driving Vw Beetles. But then Wobbly blows it and calls the thing a Buick.... we have a Buick, I hate the Buick. 4 x 4 chevy I could do, so I will try and put the Buick thing out of my head as I definitely want to avoid the Buick. Bad joo-joo.

So it looks as if the Lee classic turret is the go to unless I find that used deal in the mean time. So now the question will be buy the Kit or build the kit?
I understand cost will be higher building but I would rather pick things up as I need them at decent quality rather than buy an item twice after finding out something is not up to the task. Wobbly has a great breakdown in the other post of items needed, what are the items that need to be  top quality?
Dies?
  3 or 4 die sets?
scales?
   beam or digital... or both. I am okay with either I just see cheap digitals as being a liability if I cannot trust them.
powder measurer?
   Is this a one size fits all or will I need 1 for pistol and 1 for rifle?
calipers- I have those
Books- I will start collecting those
case trimmer
   are these universal?
case prep
 tumbler?
 I have an ultrasonic

what am I missing?

I do not know what volume I will need for pistol/rifle because at the moment I have no time to shoot. Most ranges would frown on me shooting after dark. But.... I could make bullets after dark. This may also give me a reason to get to the range to test my reloads. my guess is that the turret would be more than adequate volume for what I want/ think I need.

[johnnyrees]

Hiker do what I did to get my dillon 550b..put the money sponges(and the missus) on ultra short rations for two months....beans on toast is healthy and tastes good to boot....before you know it you will be the owner of the legendary "blue press" which all others bow before