Size Doesn?t Matter: Using 9mm for Personal Defense

[jjdurso]

most police departments require a minimum range score of 70 to qualify

I don't know how police forces score their shooters, but from my own empirical observation, most police/military can't out shoot my wife.

EDIT:  I shouldn't insult my wife, she's a pretty good shot.

[skipper]

I certainly would not argue about the new defense 9mm ammo. I own several of them, but if you are going to use +P ammo you might as well step up to a something that starts with a 4 with standard jhp. Of course you do give up some rounds. Nothing works in all situations.

[Wobbly]

You know, if you only have the 9 and you worry about effectiveness, then there's nothing that says you can't intersperse Gold Dots, with Critical Defense, with Lawman in the same mag.

 

[1SOW]

You know, if you only have the 9 and you worry about effectiveness, then there's nothing that says you can't intersperse Gold Dots, with Critical Defense, with Lawman in the same mag.

And if some shoot 2" high and others shoot 2" low, then you're assured to hit something important.

 

[Skookum]

Generally speaking, you can always benefit from going above and beyond with your training.  There are ample fighting classes you can take, practical shooting events you can participate in, and so on, and all of these will likely help you (to some extent) in the situation you ever get in a gun fight.

I think simulated combat competition or training would likely prove to be the best investment in one's survivability.  In military combat it is usually true that the combat veteran, on average, survives longer than the combat noob, whether in infantry, air superiority fighters, or attack submarines.  Most civilians who carry will not likely have combat experience, so it must be simulated.

As one who has never participated or seen a combat competition event, how realistic are they?  From what I see on YouTube, they carry openly, which seems unrealistic for most.  And, of course, no one is shooting back in such games.  To be most effective, I assume a class using Stimunition would be the eay to go?  I can see that being very expensive.

[Skookum]

You know, if you only have the 9 and you worry about effectiveness, then there's nothing that says you can't intersperse Gold Dots, with Critical Defense, with Lawman in the same mag.

And if some shoot 2" high and others shoot 2" low, then you're assured to hit something important.

I realize you are kidding, SOW1, but, for my .380 83 I have three mags ? one with Federal American Eagle 95-gr FMJ, one with Federal Premium Hydra-Shok 90-gr JHP, and the third with the two alternated.  The two cartridges have identical, or nearly identical, exterior ballistics.  I'm guessing Federal designed them that way.

Fot my 9 75 C I reckon I will carry Federal Tactical Premium HST 147-gr JHP only, because it provides adequate penetration.  However, I read someone say his last few rounds in his mags are FMJ, as he assumes if he has used that many rounds the bad guy is likely behind cover by then, so better penetration would help.  I think the Fed Am Eagle 147-gr FMJ is close to being ballistically the same as the HST.

It appears that JHPs in the 82/83 calibers generally don't provide both reliable penetration and reliable expansion.  Will bullet design continue to improve to the point where the .380 is the caliber of choice in ten years?

[Wobbly]

As one who has never participated or seen a combat competition event, how realistic are they?  From what I see on YouTube, the carry openly, which seems unrealistic for most.  And, of course, no one is shooting back in such games. 

In response, IMHO there are really 2 issues...
? Owning a handgun doesn't make you a handgun shooter, you have to get out and shoot. Any handgun shooting event is better than no shooting event. All these events involve handgun handling, reloading, movement, and of course acquiring the target. Those are all key.

? Obviously we can't have people shooting at the participants, even with paint ball. We have to inject "the clock" to apply the sense of pressure. All the major competitions now have you working against the clock. There's something about the sound of the "BEEP !!" going off in your right ear that gets the adrenalin flowing.


The more fanciful pistol competitions are called IPSC, and I believe that's what you've been watching. Guns and mags are exposed on the belt. Those scenarios sometimes border on video games. The standard training stages that stress strong-hand vs. weak-hand shooting rarely make it onto YouTube because there's not much action.

The truly defensive side of practical shooting is called IDPA. That uses concealed weapons and mags. Reloading requires you to move behind a barrier. The guns and scenarios are much more like what you might think of as plain-clothes LEO training. Check it out....  http://www.idpa.com/

 

[Birds Away]

I am confident that if I can accurately deliver two or three Silvertips center mass on an attacker that his motivation to continue his attack will be significantly diminished.  I feel just as confident that repeated hits with my Silver Bear hollow points will be just as effective at discouraging an attacker.  The equipment I use is, in my mind, not in question.  The only question is my ability to do my part.  That is always a work in progress.

[Wobbly]

The only question is my ability to do my part.  That is always a work in progress.

It seems to all boil down to "trigger time".   

[Birds Away]

Unfortunately this is not an exact science.  Even with the absolute best training and dedication sometimes stuff happens.  It is impossible to guarantee success in any situation where you may be called upon to defend your life or others.  Too many things, which are totally beyond your control, can happen to upset the apple cart.  All you can do is the best you can do.

[kobus]

Unfortunately this is not an exact science.  Even with the absolute best training and dedication sometimes stuff happens.  It is impossible to guarantee success in any situation where you may be called upon to defend your life or others.  Too many things, which are totally beyond your control, can happen to upset the apple cart.  All you can do is the best you can do.

this is very true.  the training and experience gets you to where you believe you are ready for anything until a "situation" 30 years later wakes you up to the fact that you have lost the edge because you don't practice enough and have become complacent.  we had such a wake up call and since then i am at the range at least once a week and my family joins me as often as possible. this is still no guarantee of defending yourself and your loved ones successfully but at least one feels a bit more prepared for "the next time".

[FireMoose]

"However, I read someone say his last few rounds in his mags are FMJ, as he assumes if he has used that many rounds the bad guy is likely behind cover by then, so better penetration would help."


Great idea! Or even 3-4 hps 3-4 fmj etc.

[Skookum]

"However, I read someone say his last few rounds in his mags are FMJ, as he assumes if he has used that many rounds the bad guy is likely behind cover by then, so better penetration would help."


Great idea! Or even 3-4 hps 3-4 fmj etc.

Looks like I read that at Buffalo Bore:  https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=225.

[ThompsonCustom]

I carry my CZ 75b as listed on buffalo bores website tho I hadn't seen it till now. The first 5 in my mag are HP and the rest are FMJ. I see no reason to carry caliber bigger than a 9mm except that if a HP doesn't expanded you still got a .45 sized hole. I have been testing reloaded 115gr speer gold dots out of my 75b lately and at 1425fps the bullet expands to 1&1/4 of an inch into water. With a water jugs test it almost exits the 2nd jugs but just falls short so more testing is needed most likely with ballistics gel to get a better idea on penetration but it goes to show that 9mm can punch a big hole and you could vary speed for more penetration and less expansion.

Tho I also have a .22 that I sometimes carry so size doesn't really madder to me nor does caliber as long as you can hit it where it counts.

[Birds Away]

"However, I read someone say his last few rounds in his mags are FMJ, as he assumes if he has used that many rounds the bad guy is likely behind cover by then, so better penetration would help."


Great idea! Or even 3-4 hps 3-4 fmj etc.

I never use fmj in a 9mm carry loadout.  If they seek cover it is my cue to exit stage left.  My goal is to stop the attacker or safely disengage if possible.