Author Topic: Had a safety incident today  (Read 5519 times)

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Offline kai

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 06:40:00 PM »
Mishandling a weapon makes my blood boil.  I was at Gander Mountain looking at guns.  They guy took the gun out, removed the trigger lock, pulled the mag and opened the slide.  Then stood there talking to me pulling the trigger pointing it all around.  He then set it on the counter with the barrel pointing right at me.  I reached forward and turned the gun away from me, and anyone else.  I then said I'm very anal about gun safety and I get very uncomfortable when I see them handled in a unsafe manor.  He just didn't seem to get it.   ::)  One mistake, and you, or someone else is dead.  I'm not willing to live knowing my mistake cost someone else their life.  It's not a game.  Safe habits are the key.  Impartial observation helps.  Even setting up a camera to video your time on the range, then review it at home.  You may be surprised what you will see. ::)

Offline ExCDNGuy

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 07:57:32 PM »
Mishandling a weapon makes my blood boil.  I was at Gander Mountain looking at guns.  They guy took the gun out, removed the trigger lock, pulled the mag and opened the slide.  Then stood there talking to me pulling the trigger pointing it all around.  He then set it on the counter with the barrel pointing right at me.  I reached forward and turned the gun away from me, and anyone else.  I then said I'm very anal about gun safety and I get very uncomfortable when I see them handled in a unsafe manor.  He just didn't seem to get it.   ::)  One mistake, and you, or someone else is dead.  I'm not willing to live knowing my mistake cost someone else their life.  It's not a game.  Safe habits are the key.  Impartial observation helps.  Even setting up a camera to video your time on the range, then review it at home.  You may be surprised what you will see. ::)

I agree with you - bad handling makes me boil. That's one reason I tend to avoid gun shows. For the most part, I find myself very uncomfortable inside a gun show with all the bad handling etc. that goes on by not only the clowns and wannabees, but experienced folks who SHOULD know better but seem to forget basic gun handling in that forum.  It's actually frightening in my opinion - like being at a ski resort in the base area with too many non-experienced skiers trying to shoulder their skis and swinging them around haphazardly and almost hitting you in the head - I felt safer playing hockey! BUT these are not skis and are therefore much, much more serious - not a game like you said. 

In gun stores or at gun counters in stores like Cabelas or Gander I've gotten a clerk or two upset when they've pulled out a gun, checked it and then handed it to me closed and then I checked it again myself.  One even snottily said "I've checked it, don't you trust me or do you think I'm too dumb to determine it's unloaded?!"   Well, as a matter of fact, no I wouldn't have thought your were dumb UNTIL you said that and NO, I don't trust you.  I'll check it myself thank you!  This was at a respectable gun store with a guy who probably worked there 20 years. Familiarity breeds a certain arrogance and with that a certain over confidence that leads to simple mistakes.  It's like the stories you hear about some experienced electrician who dies of electrocution after they make a rookie mistake any apprentice would avoid.  Again, not a game and a simple "oops, sorry, my bad" won't cover that errant bullet that just hit someone - you can't take that back!
 
Another time I'll share some honesty about my own screw up - hole in the ceiling - nobody hurt, no cops, no damage that couldn't be fixed - poor dog scared but I will say as a gun owner/shooter - BEST thing that could have happened (I mean in the way that it happened - nobody hurt, no legal issues and scared the holy crap out of myself) and it was a one and only time mistake. Drove the safety point home to me forever. Mentioned it to an old timer/cop I shot with at the time and he agreed that "nobody hurt and a good thing - slaps you the ____ out of being complacent!" Thanks to the topic starter manheiritis for the honesty and starting a good and important thread!  Cheers.  D.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 10:28:29 PM by ExCDNGuy »
Being honest may not always make you a lot of friends, but it will always make you the RIGHT friends.

CZ-75 BD Police - Glock 19 (gen 3) - S&W 908s - S&W M&P Pro Series .40 cal - KelTec P32 - knives, sticks, stones and a somewhat surly disposition.

Offline kai

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2013, 08:44:28 PM »
Even if I see you open and check the gun, I'm still going to open it and check it again once I have it in my hands.  When it comes to guns, I only trust me.  Complacency will get you killed sooner or later.  My instructor was very hard.  I got chewed out because I was one hole short on my target, and the other lane had one to many holes.  We were all shooting at the same time, not in the box, but in the open lanes.  The guy to my left fired and the casing hit me in the head just as I pulled the trigger.  A few rounds later another casing flew down the back of my shirt and dropped down burning me all the way down.  All I heard was him yelling keep it down range.  I managed to drop the mag, clear the round and lock the slide and finally placing the gun on the floor.

In class it was always a game to try to get another students firearm.  And I was the biggest prize.  I hold multiple black belts.  One guy got his hand on it, I locked his hand in place, spun around, put him on the floor and sat on him.  That was the second last attempt.  The last was the instructor, he failed as well.   8)   He was/is a great instructor.  I treat every gun as if it's loaded.

Offline Psyop96

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Had a safety incident today
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2013, 10:30:25 PM »
Good discussion with good points made about safety. Thanks "manhairetis" for man-ing up to an initial slip up with safety but catching it before it went any further. Regardless of range experience (I've done many as a former Drill, etc. in the Army), we firearms owners and users can always use a refresher in safety protocols. This is like doing an After-Action-Review to analyze what happened (negative and positive) and what can be done to make us do better in the future.



Offline manhairetis

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2013, 01:43:38 AM »
So the slide was actually not locked back on an empty chamber? That's interesting. I have not had that one yet but I have once realized that I had a round left in the chamber in my Kel Tec SU16B. I had removed the mag thinking it had locked back on empty racked the handle and pa-pling out came one last round.

There was nothing wrong with the gun, it worked as it should. The... malfunction was all in my brain, due to temporary loss of SA (situational awareness) as I described earlier.
This is what makes these incidents so dangerous.
Thank you.

Offline manhairetis

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2013, 01:59:58 AM »
ExCDNGuy,
Thank you for your kind words.
I absolutely agree with your writings, and let me add a nice description of what "experience" means, as I read it some years ago:
"Experience means being able to repeat the same mistake with ever rising confidence".
Best regards,
M.

Offline manhairetis

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2013, 02:04:24 AM »
Good discussion with good points made about safety. Thanks "manhairetis" for man-ing up to an initial slip up with safety but catching it before it went any further.

Thank you for your polite comment.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2013, 03:06:01 PM »
I think the OP's experience relates a good point - overlapping "safe" policies. Where one safety policy fails, there's another to cover for it. In this case, it was having the gun pointed down range. Good work! That's how it's supposed to be.

The new range in town is great. It's well lit, they actually have a range master (the old place doesn't), and they make you watch a safety vid before you shoot there. BUT there was a disturbing situation the other day. The guy in the next lane had an AR, and when he was done shooting between mags, he would place the rifle on the bench at a diagonal so that the barrel was pointing at the side wall rather than at the trap downrange.

As I was shooting, I could see the barrel of his rifle peeking over into my lane past the partition. . The muzzle wasn't pointed at me, but the position of the rifle put me in front of the perpendicular of his muzzle. In other words, I could actually see into his barrel. Don't think range safety is supposed to work that way. Had the rifle been jarred somehow, it might've pointed right at me. It was probably unloaded, but it's still a problem.

I'll mention it to the owners the next time I'm in. I think the problem is that the range doesn't yet have a place for rifle shooters to put their guns so that they stay securely pointed down range. He probably put the thing at a diagonal because putting it on the bench so it was pointed downrange means the stock and barrel are sticking out over the edge of the bench. I think simple rifle racks mounted on the partitions should do the trick.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 03:13:52 PM by JamesR »

Offline Duckie

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2013, 04:50:42 PM »
Manhairetis, if you need any of the chamber safety flags, the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) sells them for $4.99 a dozen. I have some thrown in every range bag I have and if I see someone not using one at my range I give them one and show them how to use them. Cheap investment if it prevents an accident.

Here is the link to the CMP e-store, or most LGC's have them.

http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=product&ID=244&item=&sfv=&cat=EQA&desc=&udc=&mct=&vndr=&ba=&pmin=&pmax=&note1=&note2=&note3=&note4=&note5=&max=
CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical
CZ 85B
Kadet 22LR Adapter
Marlin 336 30-30
CZ 452 22LR Military Trainer
Springfield 840 30-30

Offline manhairetis

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2013, 05:50:02 PM »
Duckie,
You were very helpful.
Thank you!!!

Offline motosapiens

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 03:54:27 PM »
this thread is a good reminder about multiple overlapping safety rules. I'm not too anal about every little safety ritual (heck, I do dryfire practice in my backyard), but if the gun is not in my hand and pointed downrange, it is either decocked, or on safe.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 03:56:12 PM by motosapiens »

Offline Franc

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2013, 07:57:54 PM »
@ manhairetis,

Could this happen to annyone ?
Yes it most certainly can.
Went to the range this evening. Did some 25 mtrs, and to empty the box, one target two hands at 12 mtrs.
Last 5 rds in the magazine and rapid fire. Finished, got target back, close group, 4 nice holes ! Where did number 5 go ?
CZ on the table, pointed downrange, magazine out and suddenly noticed the slide forward in SA-mode, same like you.
I immediately remembered your post from yesterday. Carefully picked up the pistol, racked slide back to get the nr. 5 out.
Put it back in to the magazine to fire last shot, perfect 10.
Thanks for sharing, you safed the day  ;)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 10:28:30 PM by Franc »
Si vis pacem para bellum

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Offline manhairetis

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2013, 12:37:11 AM »
Franc,
It certainly can happen to anyone. Actually it does and so often, that in the Air Force (and elsewhere) it has its own name as I have mentioned above: Loss of S.A.
Thank you for your kind words. I am very glad that you also followed the rules and you had a safe outcome too.
Best regards,
M.

Offline johnnyrees

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2013, 05:48:00 AM »
Ingrain the IPSC way in your mind...if you have finished,show clear,if you are clear,slide down.hammer down and holster..all done with the gun pointing down range

Offline gunguru

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Re: Had a safety incident today
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2013, 01:22:09 PM »
Agree for IPSC way.

If finished, unload and show clear, if clear, hammer down (dry firing), holster (or table).  After that you should open the action and let it open.

On the table, a gun may always be open.  A closed gun is a loaded gun.
After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military.
william_s_burroughs