Engaging safety when hammer is down.

[Birds Away]

The user should be function checking a firearm every time it's reassembled; e.g., every time it's cleaned.  If the safety lever is found to be not engaging the safety, it is operator negligence to keep using such a defective firearm.

I respectfully disagree.  If I were to loan or sell the gun without disclosing this, then yes, that would be negiligent to the point of being, perhaps, malicious. 

[helopigs]

I respectfully disagree.  If I were to loan or sell the gun without disclosing this, then yes, that would be negiligent to the point of being, perhaps, malicious.

What about selling kits without disclosing the impact on safety behaviour?

CGW and CZC are stellar companies with pristine reputations. and pretty much "make" the CZ enthusiast community in the US possible. I don't understand why they are leaving themselves vulnerable to potential liability by failing to disclose these important details (gun can fire with safety engaged) about some of their most popular products (eg CGW race hammer kit).

If they were to add such a notice, could that compel them to issue a voluntary recall to previous customers, or some other burdensome legal inconveniences?

There has to be some rationale...

[Bossgobbler]

You guys are blowing this all out of proportion!  Safety is for when hammer is cocked and locked!  When the hammer is down = no need for safety! Just like all of the striker fired guns, Glock, XD, S&W M&P built with out a safety you are always in DA.  Now if the gun will drop the hammer in SA with the safety on then that is a safety problem, but I do not think that is what the OP was asking about.  With the hammer down you should not put the safety on & force the trigger pull until it over rides the safety.
Just my $0.02

[schmeky]

helpopigs in post # 15 stated:  I thought I must have done something wrong after installing a new hammer in my CZ, and upon inquiry the shop told me essentially "we've sold tons of these, and nobody else seems to mind. want a refund?"

This is taken out of context and has been misconstrued.  When the customer inquired, I explained how the geometry is altered with high a performance hammer.  I also explained the operation of the safety was normal when these parts are used.  I also indicated that if the customer was not comfortable with their CZ (with the hammer kit), they could return the parts for a refund, no questions asked.  I did indicate that thousands of hammer (kits) have been sold with no complaints about the safety function. 

I was not flippant or derogatory in any way. 

The DA mechanism is a safety, and the manual safety is neither used nor needed in DA.  CZs were designed to be carried hammer down for a DA first shot, or carried cocked and locked and the manual safety applied "up" or "on". 

What am I missing?   Again, I would be more than happy to issue a refund upon request.

[1SOW]

I was not flippant or derogatory in any way. 

The DA mechanism is a safety, and the manual safety is neither used nor needed in DA.  CZs were designed to be carried hammer down for a DA first shot, or carried cocked and locked and the manual safety applied "up" or "on".

 

All those of us who have done business with CGW and David, KNOW for a fact that he's sure NOT flippant or derogatory.  QUITE THE CONTRARY,  he's always done everything possible to make his customers completely satisfied.    His products are excellent and he backs them up completely.

IF you have decided you don't trust the way a modified CZ functions simply return it to stock condition.  The pistol functions safely.  Mine customized at the CZ Custom shop, does exactly the same.

[Grendel]

Why is anyone applying the safety when the hammer is down? It's not necessary nor designed to work that way. Why is no one having a stroke when the FPB gets removed on some CZ models? That's deliberately defeating a manufacturer's safety system, yet people do it all the time without worrying about some putative liability issue.

Both Stuart and Schmeky have told you what's going on, but for some reason people are concerned about liability when they do something the pistol was not designed to do and think it's broken when it isn't.

If anyone's that worried about their pistol after fitting a CGW hammer, then call Schmeky and get a refund. You're fussing over nothing, but it's your gun, so you should be happy with it.

[Birds Away]

I honestly had no idea about the safety until I read it on here. I would never have thought to check it since the "function" is unchanged. As for Schmeky, I have nothing but respect for the way he does business.  I have, and will continue to, recommend his work to anyone who wants to make the most of their CZ. 

[Skookum]

The DA mechanism is a safety, and the manual safety is neither used nor needed in DA.  CZs were designed to be carried hammer down for a DA first shot, or carried cocked and locked and the manual safety applied "up" or "on". 

What am I missing?

Is it true that some of your modifications alter the safety function?  If so, which modifications do so, and how is the safety function altered.

While true that the CZ was designed to be used as you describe, I get the impression that some modifications result in a redesign, which could alter the way the pistol is used.  Full disclosure of any such alterations would be appreciated.

[helopigs]

What am I missing?

You are missing a notice in the race hammer description explaining the change in safety function.

There are people that have installed this part that are unaware that the behaviour of their safety has changed. What exactly will happen when the safety is engaged with the hammer down is undefined in the minds of those that have not tested it. Incorrectly assuming that a pistol will not fire can lead to some pretty bad outcomes. Likewise, incorrectly assuming that a semi-automatic pistol will fire repeatedly after the first shot until its magazine is empty, when it may (if perhaps the safety was unknowingly engaged) only fire a single shot and require disengagement of the safety for follow-up shots, could as well.

I absolutely love the race hammer kit. It's a simple mod that makes my pistol more fun to shoot. I recommend it (as well as all of CGW's parts) to anyone that has a CZ. I still would have purchased the race hammer kit if the notice was present, but I also would have purchased the SA-only trigger, pins, and starter punch.

I know you were not intentionally being flippant (and certainly were not derogatory) in your email response to me. But in the context of firearm safety, I feel that full disclosure of the extent of changes from a particular modification is a serious necessity.

p.s. please don't spit on my trigger when I do order it

[Skookum]

Why is anyone applying the safety when the hammer is down?

Because apparently some modifications allow one to do so.

Why is no one having a stroke when the FPB gets removed on some CZ models? That's deliberately defeating a manufacturer's safety system, yet people do it all the time without worrying about some putative liability issue.

I think the authorities in CA, for example, would get worked up if you did this in their jurisdiction.

When folks knowingly remove the FPB on a CZ 75 B, for example, it does not fundamentally alter the basic function of the pistol; one just needs to be more cautious about not dropping it.  I think you would admit that this alteration would need to be disclosed upon resale ? that there is no longer a B in the CZ 75 B.

Both Stuart and Schmeky have told you what's going on, but for some reason people are concerned about liability when they do something the pistol was not designed to do and think it's broken when it isn't.

I'm still puzzled about what's going on, and would appreciate clarification both here and on the vendor's websites.  Apparently some modifications alter the design parameters of the pistol.  It's perplexing that such alterations are not fully disclosed to potential consumers.  Why the Obama-esque non-transparency?

[Grendel]

There is no obama-esque non transparency. This thread is evidence of that. The OPs question was answered by two of the acknowledged experts in the field and solutions to the non existent problem offered.

Locked.