Load Testing: Winchester 231

[kaiserkudo]

Have been reading through the wealth of info here (which is awesome btw) and just want to get some reassurance that I'm applying the correct amount of crimp before I churn out 500 rounds.
Background information:
Firearm: CZ 75 SP01 Shadow
Lapua and Federal Brass
Berry 124gr HBRN
WINz 231 and AP-50 powder.
OAL 1.125"
Dillon XL650 press with Dillon 9mm dies (separate seating and taper crimp dies)

So...
As recommended, I seated a projectile into a sized (but not belled) case and got measurement of 0.374-0.376" diameter near case mouth.

Ran them through the tamper crimp die and they remeasured the same around 0.375"

I then proceeded to load 10 rounds as normal (without powder or primers) through the press.

OAL varied from 1.125" with the Lapua brass and up to 1.131" with Federal brass.

Diameter remained the same 0.374-0.375".

Going my that description and the photos below, does my taper crimp look correct. First time loader so I'm not sure what to look for.

They cycled through my gun by hand ok, one got stuck on the feed ramp and required a tap on the slide to feed.

Photos No Longer Available for Showing

thanks

[painter]

The bullet that shows an indent has too much crimp. The bullet should remain undamaged.

I aim for about .376-.377 for an OD after taper crimping...no less. Keep in mind that brass thickness will affect your finished OD.

I'm not sure why your rounds show a gap after crimping. What bullets are those?

[kaiserkudo]

Those are Berry 124gr HBRN. I will back the taper off a fraction until a pulled bullet comes out undamaged. Thanks.

[Riptide439]

Welcome to the group kaiserkudo!

As painter said TOO TIGHT! I run as painter does sometimes a smidge bigger @ .378 but always check cartridges with my barrel or at minimum a case gauge to ensure they "plunk". If I need to break down a round using a kinetic hammer, there are zero marks on the bullet.

The OAL seems a bit short also. Did you do a plunk test as recommended in the sticky below? If not it is a prerequisite for your experience here on the forum. 
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0
Let us know your "plunk" test results (Remember to use a fired case from your gun. May take a few cases to find a couple that work)

Your W231 is a great powder to start with! Start low and work up with test loads. For example;
Below is the W231 data from Hodgdon website.

Manufacturer   Powder   Bullet Diam.    C.O.L.   Grs.    Vel.(ft/s)      Pressure     Grs.      Vel.    (ft/s)Pressure
Winchester       231         .356"          1.150"   3.9         920        27,400PSI    4.4      1,037     31,900 PSI

Your starting load with W231 should be at 3.9. Next 4.0 Next 4.1 etc.  (See Above) Don't go past the max recommended please. All here would like to keep forum newbies in one piece. 
So load 8 to 10 rounds at each weight to test which load performs the best in your SP01.

Does this help?

[kaiserkudo]

Thanks for the welcome. I sure did the the plunk and push test

Photos No Longer Available for Showing

My cases with projectile seated are coming out at 0.376 and that was without belling the case at all. The projectiles are 0.356".

I've heard a few different recommendations for OAL ranging from 1.100 to 1.150. From researching threads here, 1.14 might be a good place to start with the Berry 124gr RN?

Cheers

[Riptide439]

I've heard a few different reccomendations for OAL ranging from 1.100 to 1.150. From researching threads here, 1.14 might be a good place to start with the Berry 124gr RN?

Cheers

I think that is a great starting point 1.140. One thing to remember is the need to check each barrel from every pistol for which you intend to reload. For example;
My 85C is about normal to the landings  and similar to my Phantom but my 75B is 0.110 shorter to the landing with most bullets.
Look forward to hearing about your range reports on you loads.

[SMSgt]

That round does not look fully chambered to me and looks long--again, to me. Compare it against a commercial round. Push you reload into the chamber and then see if there are any rifling marks on the bullet. If there is, you're not seated deep enough. The round should seat on the case mouth, not the bullet.

I often hear that 9mm is difficult to load due to being tapered. I don't find a bit of truth to that. It's no more or less difficult to reload that any other semi-auto round I reload.

[Wobbly]

Welcome aboard !

Looks like you're doing great.

• While it's always nice to know the optimal taper crimp diameter, remember that you merely need to be under the .380" dimension as shown in your manual. Setting your crimp at .377-.378" is going to allow you to run any brand of brass through your die setup without changing the crimp die setup every time.

Optimal taper crimp diameter changes as a sum of the bullet diameter plus the case wall thickness. But the true "yardstick" is: "does the round chamber under its own weight?". That's a function of the chamber diameter... which is a fixed and unchanging dimension. Follow?

Additionally, what if the bullets were undersized and the case walls were paper thin? Would you actually crimp at, say, 0.365" and run the risk of not having the round head space on the end of the chamber? No, I think not. So IMHO while the optimal crimp number may be good to understand, it's more practical to have a nice meaty surface contact for head spacing which the .377-.378 allows. That larger crimp diameter then assures you that no harm is coming to your plated bullets, no matter what brand brass you happen to use that day.

• It's the same with the OAL. While the chamber may accept something over 1.200", it's far more practical to seat the HBRN bullet to a max of 1.140" to insure proper bullet retention.

• I use the same dies on the same bullets and don't experience that gap. That could be caused by too much TC. Back off and see if it doesn't go away. You may be seeing proof that too much TC warps the case and actually reduces neck tension. Very strange indeed.

 

[1SOW]

SMSgt,  he's showing the push test results---the point at which the bullet contacts the leade/lands--1.2145"
Which is close to what mine also show---a nice pointed nose and conventional ogive.

Kaiserkuda welcome to the reloading forum.
The guys above know what they are talking about.
Choosing a starting OAL is always a decision you must make depending on the tests you ran in your pistol (s). which gives the limits you have to work with.
The "Load Data" gives results they found with their published OAL.  If you load LONGER than their OAL then no harm.  The pressures will be LOWER in the case.  If you load SHORTER than their oal, the pressures will be higher in the case.  For big decreases in OAL a decrease in the powder load may be needed to stay safe.

I've heard a few different reccomendations for OAL ranging from 1.100 to 1.150. From researching threads here, 1.140 might be a good place to start with the Berry 124gr RN?

JMO:   Remember there are "TWO" Berry's 124gr "RN" bullets.  Yours is the "Berry's" 124gr "HBRN".  I doubt VERY much anyone is loading THAT particular bullet at 1.100".   The load range in the data gives a safe starting point for minor changes (shorter) in OAL.   .04" ISN'T a minor change.

I fully agree with Wobbly about the taper Crimp.  The taper crimp should completely close the belled casemouth to full bullet contact---no gaps and no damage to the bullet.  My thought on your pics of the bullet damage,  is that the bullet was indented and the case mouth sprung back open slightly after the excessive crimp.

As Wobbly and Riptide said.  .377"-.378" should work fine with your .356" bullet in any standard 9mm brass case.

[kaiserkudo]

Thank you all for the informative replies. It indeed looks like I over crimped those last ones.  My brass must be slightly thinner than normal because I keep getting .375" measured at the case mouth with no bell or crimp applied , just seating a Berry's to appropriate length. i measured the Berry's and they are staying true to their .356" stated diameter.

Ill report back once i get back to the press. Thanks again.

[1SOW]

FWIW:  Something is odd.
I load range pick-up brass and shoot well over a thousand/month and have never "seen" a .375" casemouth on a cartridge.
I do taper crimp to get .377-.380.  I have seen some Fed/Blazer cases down to .3765"
I'm using Lee dies including the dreaded FCD for the crimp. 

FWIW My personal preference for 9mm range brass is WIN & R&P.  I do load mostly those two,  but occassionally PPU, WCC and some ATK Brass (FC, Blazer, Speer)

[kaiserkudo]

My calipers could be out? Theyre only $40 digital ones?

[1SOW]

Maybe it's mine.  Mine was $11 on sale from Harbor Freight,  but I do have a another cheapie from Frankford Arsenal that agrees.
Also, at .377",  my 124 HBRN will show a very faint line on the pulled bullet made the case mouth. 

[kaiserkudo]

Ok so I measured a larger sample of the Berry's-  theyre coming out as 0.3550"-0.3555".
Average case thickness is 0.013". I backed off the crimp the smallest fraction and measurements at the case mouth on a finished round are showing 0.378".  Pulled the bullet out again and there is the very slightest ring visible but not a deep depression like I posted earlier.

[1SOW]

THAT's in the ball park!  Those should feed, seat, fire and extract as smooth as silk.