Author Topic: Load Testing: Winchester 231  (Read 14265 times)

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Offline rckendall

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2019, 12:23:06 PM »
Wobbly,
Would you elaborate on this please?    • Low SD attributed to great metering    Was the metering from your RL550?

Thanks,
Richard

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2019, 06:11:36 PM »
Would you elaborate on this please? 
Quote
• Low SD attributed to great metering
  Was the metering from your RL550?


• 231 is a small diameter "flattened ball" powder that's coated in graphite, so it always meters well.
• In fact, I'd have to say that 231 was one of the best metering powders before this latest release of ball types.
• Since the late 90's, there's only 1 Dillon powder measure. I'm using a 650 with a modified 10 year old PM.
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Offline rckendall

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2019, 06:35:45 PM »
Thanks for that, but I thought from reading previous posts that you liked HP-38 better? My press is brand new and just getting things adjusted and my drop weights are pretty broad, like maybe almost half a tenth either way. I'm seeing powder sticking to the reservoir now and hope it will settle in after things get coated a bit with residue.

How do you find HP-38 as far as metering goes?

Thanks,
Richard

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2019, 07:12:59 PM »
Thanks for that, but I thought from reading previous posts that you liked HP-38 better? My press is brand new and just getting things adjusted and my drop weights are pretty broad, like maybe almost half a tenth either way. I'm seeing powder sticking to the reservoir now and hope it will settle in after things get coated a bit with residue.

How do you find HP-38 as far as metering goes?

HP-38 is the exact same powder as W231, it's simply sold by 2 different distributors.

• Lots of suggestions on using and tweaking the Dillon PM here.... https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=107798.0

Hope this helps.   ;)
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Offline CzechnoWizard

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231 in 9mm
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2019, 06:08:23 PM »
Quote from: Wobbly

[b
Load      Avg Vel           SD[/b]
3.0gr          638              22
3.2             668              21
3.4             700              30
3.6             746              46
3.8             827              26
4.0             864              39
4.2             936              14
4.4             975              24  Suspected Max Load
4.6            1009             27
4.8            1029             27
5.0            1031             15



NOTES
• Although we reached Max Load at about 4.4gr, testing was done in a 357 with a much higher allowable chamber pressure. Do Not try this is a 38 Spcl pistol.
• Take special note of how the velocity increments are at ~50-60 fps and then suddenly drop to 20, and then 10. This even though the SD remained constant. That dramatically proves we were out of the safe loading zone[/co
 

Wobbly,
Curious as to why the plateau in velocity gain is read as a sign of dangerous pressure? I might interpret it as a sign that you've simply run out of barrel. If you suddenly gained a lot of velocity with a small change in powder charge, I would take that as a sign of spiking pressure. Likewise if you saw other signs in primers, or increased leakage at the cylinder gap, etc.  The fact that adding powder failed to increase velocity suggested to me that you are unable to burn any more powder before the bullet leaves the bore.  Am I missing an important lesson here?

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231 in 9mm
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2019, 06:52:00 AM »
Curious as to why the plateau in velocity gain is read as a sign of dangerous pressure? I might interpret it as a sign that you've simply run out of barrel. If you suddenly gained a lot of velocity with a small change in powder charge, I would take that as a sign of spiking pressure. Likewise if you saw other signs in primers, or increased leakage at the cylinder gap, etc.  The fact that adding powder failed to increase velocity suggested to me that you are unable to burn any more powder before the bullet leaves the bore.  Am I missing an important lesson here?


Simply because that was my impression at the time. I know that Max Load in 9mm is around 1050fps, and this seemed to be similar. That's why I used the term "Suspected". But you are correct, the cases were not sticking and there were no other pressure signs.

However in the area above Max Load, Velocity and Pressure stop acting in concert. Velocity does not 'Spike'. It is the exact opposite. It is Chamber Pressure that spikes, while Velocity flattens out and starts to falter. This continued rise in undetected pressure is one reason guns blow up.

Because my instruments only allow me to see Velocity, and because that measurement is tenuously based on light conditions. I chose to err on the safe side and interpret the loss of velocity the way I did.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 06:57:13 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline CzechnoWizard

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2019, 09:23:50 AM »
Understood.  Being conservative is always the safest path. I'd say that, in the danger zone, velocity and pressure MAY stop acting together. Increased pressure necessarily leads to increased velocity UNLESS that pressure does not actually act upon the base of the bullet (as in the case where it instead leaks past the brass, blows by the bullet to bore seal, escapes via the cylinder gap, or breaches the primer).  If additional powder fails to produce additional velocity, we might conclude that the invisible intermediary, pressure, became higher than the system could contain. That would certainly be the time to stop and drop a half grain.  However,  it is also plausible that additional powder simply did not create additional pressure because there was too much present to burn before the bullet escaped and uncorked the little bomb we call a pistol.  Again, erring in favor of keeping all your digits is wonderful advice. For the benefit of any less experienced reloaders, I would simply add that a situation such as you observed is a good time to consult multiple sources of data.  Presumably you started with a published load from one manual. Consult some others. While we do not have direct pressure data available at our bench,   the powder companies have extensive test info and we can compare our results to their recommendations for a clue as to whether we are indeed playing with fire. Likewise, examine the burn rate chart. Is the powder you are using similar in burn rate to those powders used in published loads?  If your powder is slower than what is commonly used, expect to see something like Wobbly noted in the .38 loads,  where velocity plateaus and maybe muzzle flash gets ferocious. If you are using faster powders, expect that you may not be able to reach the published velocity before seeing pressure signs.  Fast powder is lovely for creating mouse fart loads but usually reaches the pressure limit fast and then fails to sustain it long enough to accelerate the bullet to higher speeds.   Sticking within published data is the safest course, but even then we can encounter results that are confusing without the benefit of a ballistics lab to provide an xray into what's happening. When you get those weird results you can hypothesize all you want about the cause, but don't ignore the availability of additional published resources to help you determine whether you are being safe.

In this case, Hodgdon says max load for 148 grain lead is 4.0 grains. They got about 950 fps, but in a 7.7" barrel.  Your results seem about as expected with the shorter 6" barrel.  Its also likely that the cylinder gap accounts for some loss if the data was run in a test barrel.

38 special is a fun example because we have +p and 357 load data to examine as well. In the +p listings, it shows 4.9gr hp38 producing just 25 fps more (976fps) and pressure "only" about 2k higher than in the max load for 38 special.  I take this as confirmation that 231/hp38 just cannot burn fast enough to make more pressure in a short barrel. The .357 data is run in a 10" barrel and we see that jacking the charge to about 6 grains does produce notably more pressure, given the longer barrel in which to burn. 

Sorry if this went off the rails into complexity but I know there will be folks who can benefit from a reminder to use the  info the powder companies spent so much money compiling. When your results start to look funky, stop loading and start studying.

Happy New Year all!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 09:42:18 AM by CzechnoWizard »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2019, 11:05:04 AM »
When your results start to look funky, stop loading and start studying.


Very well stated. A most excellent conclusion, and a good rule for all reloaders to follow.

In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2020, 05:40:19 PM »
Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  40F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   W231  (6.3-7.1gr)
Max Velocity:  1182 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
6.4gr            1067              19
6.7               1113              13
7.0               1161              17

NOTES
• Meters great, just like 231 always does
• Snappy, but with good accuracy
• Preferable to WSF
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2020, 06:24:11 PM »
Equipment
Caliber:    9mm Luger
Bullets:    RMR 125gr JHP
Brass:      Mixed
Primer:    CCI
OAL:        1.065"
Pistol:      CZ 75
Qty:        15 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  80F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX
Powder:   W231
Max Velocity:  ~1060 fps

Load        Avg Vel              ES          SD
3.8gr              960              40          12
3.9                 971              54          14
4.0               1010              42          10
4.1               1021              45          12
4.2               1041              62          17

NOTES
• Intend to return with 4.3 and 4.4gr
• All rounds operate the slide correctly
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 08:05:23 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline toteone

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2020, 02:11:12 PM »
Equipment
Caliber:  9x19 Luger
Bullets:  124gr Precision Delta JHP
Brass:    Nickle Fed Cartridge (FC)
Powder:  Win 231 (HP-38)
Max Velocity:  1050fps
Primer:  Federal Small Pistol
OAL:     1.100
Pistol:    CZ SP01 Tactical
Qty:      8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  60F cool and clear
Chrono:  ProChrono DLX


Load      Avg Vel           SD
3.9gr          954              12
4.0             968              10
4.1             995              17
4.2            1029             21
4.3            1053             13   Max Load
4.4            1078              8   Above Max Load



NOTES
• Pleasant to shoot; nice velocity increments
• Low SD attributed to great metering
• Cases and gun were reasonably clean




Wobbly, using my P-01, same OAL, bullet, powder with WSP primers, I get avg 1040fps with 4.3gr, this gives me best PF with min recoil for competition.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 02:20:26 PM by toteone »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2020, 05:23:05 PM »
Shorter barrel; slight drop in velocity.

It's funny, but most people do end up with 4.3gr with any gun and any bullet.  :D
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Offline J Lee

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Re: Load Testing: Winchester 231
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2020, 05:24:53 PM »
4.5gr W231/HP-38 with 124gr Precision Delta HP @ 1.090".  My favorite and most accurate 9mm handload. 1067 FPS 15-shot average from a P07 (chrono-ed with a ProDigital), 6.3 SD and 24 ES, WSP primer, Fed brass, .378 crimp, Dillon RL 550B.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 08:51:48 AM by Wobbly »
James