Author Topic: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase  (Read 751 times)

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Offline nmcarbine

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VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« on: January 17, 2020, 03:47:28 PM »
Hello,  I am new to the forum although I have been eavesdropping lately when I got the VZ-58 bug. 

I am a FFL located in New Mexico.  A client who is a soldier serving in Korea has his internet purchases transfer through me.  On his last visit, at Christmas, he had a VZ2008 transfer through me which appeared to be new.  I honestly was not aware of the firearm prior to that.  One of the gurus he talks to about what to buy suggested the VZ-58 platform so he found and ordered his VZ2002.

That sparked my interest so for the past few weeks I have been checking around for one that I could buy.  I didn't want to pay a lot and was hoping to pay less than he had paid (~$750).  I found a guy in MI selling two new VZ2002s for $550 but he was lazy about shipping and sold them locally.  Very unprofessional to offer for sale and to ship but then not accept my sale.  Anyway, not to be discouraged I checked around some more and for the same price I found a used VZ2002 but loaded with most of the goodies I would have added anyway.  However, I didn't get the original folder and beaver barf doing it this way, but I can easily and for less money, buy those items.

As you can see in the picture, it came with a RH flash hider vs. the slant brake.  The Fab Defense upper and lower handguard,  pistol grip, butt stock, and cheek riser.

If you didn't notice, yes, a camo paint job.  I have never had a camo firearm before so maybe it will grow on me.

In the butt stock compartment was the front sight tool, and to my amazement, in the pistol grip was a piece of paracord AND two rounds of Tula.

When I talked to the out-of-state seller (pawn shop) he said he had cleaned the gun and he should have checked the pistol grip as he just broke about 100 laws.

Questions:

1.  When researching the add-ons while waiting for the rifle to show up, I asked what handguard furniture Fab Defense offered, their VP first said the same furniture fit the VZ-58 and VZ2008.  I then asked him why the web site said the furniture was only for the VZ-58 and would not fit the VZ2008?  After pointing out to him what his web site said, he talked to his engineers and came back and said I was right, they would not fit the VZ2008???  I did see the two ears broken off the heat shield, but I assume you need to do that on the VZ58 too.  So, what is the difference between that portion of the rifle such that Fab Defense says their handguard won't fit?  I assumed that other than the longer barrel, the furniture was the same, but apparently not?

2.  I was surprised to see a flash hider vs. the slant brake.  I am considering the brake from CNC Warrior as it is inexpensive and seems to function properly.  Not to mention looking cooler than the flash hider.

3.  This butt stock is attached with a metal hinge joint although I saw some were poly.  I am glad this one is all metal and it locks up tight.  It also has the spring in the tube to handle all that horrendous recoil :)

 4.  It is my understanding that these are made from parts kits or disassembled rifles and that CAI had a US company make the milled receiver and the barrel (possibly Green Mountain).  I know the barrel is longer than the VZ-58 model so the brake wouldn't need to be pinned or welded to get 16".  What other, if any differences are there in parts?

The front sight doesn't appear to be canted so that is a good thing.  It just came with one mag so I am shopping for those.  I was also eyeballing the CSA side-mount rail and optic riser but they were OOS.

Thoughts....





Offline wanderson

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2020, 08:34:31 PM »
Well my VZ2008 came with the orange beaver barf handguards and folding stock. When I replaced the folder with a surplus stock it was red so I picked up some surplus handguards to match. They fit with no mods so I’m not sure why Fab Defense says there’s a difference.

If you have the Fab Def folding stock with the metal hinge that sells for twice what their polymer hinge stock  costs. I think the cheapest I found was $250 so I just went surplus for $50.

For surplus mags I’d check KeepShooting.com, RobertRTG or Numrich Gun Parts.

Has the carrier been tabbed?

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2020, 02:18:31 AM »
You got a gun that was customized by an owner or bubba. 

VZ2008s are teflon so you can likely clear what appears to be rattle can spraypaint off with relative ease if you want.  No idea about difficulty of removal with the fab furniture, but provided there's no plastic primer, you should be able to accomplish w/o much difficulty.

Your front sight is missing bayonet lug, so maybe a bubba removal, OR a bubba swap for open-eared.  Not aware of 2008's w/o bayo lugs, but they could exist.

I'd guess your folding stock joint is stormwerkz but can't see for certain.  Doesn't appear to be the fab one.

You muzzle device appears to be a CNC Warrior one, maybe type 81 flash hider.

Most of above and many other questions can be answered with a simple google search of this subforum: site:czfirearms.us SEARCH WORDS

Offline nmcarbine

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2020, 08:12:19 PM »
If you have the Fab Def folding stock with the metal hinge that sells for twice what their polymer hinge stock  costs. I think the cheapest I found was $250 so I just went surplus for $50.

For surplus mags I’d check KeepShooting.com, RobertRTG or Numrich Gun Parts.

Has the carrier been tabbed?
You are right.  They are still being sold by Optics Planet and RTG around $320.  RTG calls it the VZ58 FOLDING M4 COLLAPSIBLE STOCK W/ STEEL GALIL HINGE.  The description said it is the tightest locking up design.

I get a dealer deal at Numrich so I located the mags there and orders a couple of those and some odds and ends like a pouch and stripper clips.

Thanks Sir!

Offline nmcarbine

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2020, 08:19:37 PM »
You got a gun that was customized by an owner or bubba. 

VZ2008s are teflon so you can likely clear what appears to be rattle can spraypaint off with relative ease if you want.  No idea about difficulty of removal with the fab furniture, but provided there's no plastic primer, you should be able to accomplish w/o much difficulty.

Your front sight is missing bayonet lug, so maybe a bubba removal, OR a bubba swap for open-eared.  Not aware of 2008's w/o bayo lugs, but they could exist.

I'd guess your folding stock joint is stormwerkz but can't see for certain.  Doesn't appear to be the fab one.

You muzzle device appears to be a CNC Warrior one, maybe type 81 flash hider.

Most of above and many other questions can be answered with a simple google search of this subforum: site:czfirearms.us SEARCH WORDS

I don't think the customization goes beyond the paint and off the shelf accessories.  As mentioned above, the stock is (was) standard Fab product, expensive as well.

I mentioned having a customer transfer one through me, I noticed when logging mine into the log book, that we had different serials.  His serial is VZ08PM-00XXXX and mine is VZ0XXXX.  I am guessing mine is an earlier model vs the later model.  I am only making a wild guess.  As far as the lack of bayonet lug and open sight on top, I can only guess that mine was made that way.  I can tell you the lug wasn't ground off as the way the bottom is made you could tell.

As an aside, still working on the copper, the third day running.  I am up to 5 pennies worth at this point.  Maybe that means there will be a pristine barrel underneath, protected by the copper. :)

Thanks

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2020, 12:47:27 PM »
Front sight blocks are easy to replace.  All CSA/Dtechnic guns are imported w/o bayo lugs.  And Czechpoint replaces them w/ FSB's w/ bayo lugs on many models.  If the previous owner wanted open-eared, w/o bayo lug would have been cheaper and easier to acquire than open-eared w/ bayo lugs.  Czechpoint has only sold the new production open-eared sight blocks w/ bayo lugs for a couple years now.

There's a thread here on VZ2008 gens by serial number, which might provide some more info for you.  But looking closer at the receiver (which is hard to see w/ camo), it's not cut like any VZ2008 I recognize.

Are there any markings blow the rear sight on the receiver or other markings/model # beyond the serial you shared.  Is the muzzle device pinned? Etc?

Offline nmcarbine

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2020, 10:24:12 PM »
Front sight blocks are easy to replace.  All CSA/Dtechnic guns are imported w/o bayo lugs.  And Czechpoint replaces them w/ FSB's w/ bayo lugs on many models.  If the previous owner wanted open-eared, w/o bayo lug would have been cheaper and easier to acquire than open-eared w/ bayo lugs.  Czechpoint has only sold the new production open-eared sight blocks w/ bayo lugs for a couple years now.

There's a thread here on VZ2008 gens by serial number, which might provide some more info for you.  But looking closer at the receiver (which is hard to see w/ camo), it's not cut like any VZ2008 I recognize.

Are there any markings blow the rear sight on the receiver or other markings/model # beyond the serial you shared.  Is the muzzle device pinned? Etc?
I don't think the previous owner changed the sight block or modified it, but that is a hunch.  Were all the imports 15.5" barrel?

I will try and locate the S/N thread.

The rear sight block says "VZ2008 Sporter VZ02XXX"

The side of the front sight post has an oblong and it says "U7".

Threaded 14.1RH

Bolt Carrier marked 01

The locking block has the same oblong with the U7 in it indicating, if that is a logo, that the front sight block and the locking block were from the same place.  There are a variety of marks on the various components.  I didn't know if the marking on the front sight post would help define it's origin or not?

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2020, 12:59:50 AM »
All Vz2008s were approx 16.25" barrels AFAIK.

Czechpoints/CSAs?Dtechnics were 15.5" until surplus barrel stocks were exhausted.  Then, post-2016 (forget exact year), Lothar Walther began making their barrels.

----

Well, I just learned something -- running a google search by date, I found a "Century VZ2008 manual" pdf circa 2008 that appears to be a Dtechnic gun: https://www.centuryarms.com/media/Rhet/Resources/Post/Attachment/31024824412695.pdf

Best guess is that this is what your rifle is given bayo lug removal, receiver profile, and markings.

You'll have to read through the # of imports thread, but my understanding was that the Gen 1 Vz2008s were US-built on AWO/ORF receivers...  But maybe they were all Czech-built -- but that wouldn't explain the lawsuit.
As mentioned, there was a lawsuit where Century halted production and made a lot of changes, so it's possible they cancelled buying CSA guns to build their own midway through the first gen serial #s, but I honestly don't know the specifics of that.  About the only way to know for sure is collect model numbers and detailed photos.
Interesting nonetheless.

Offline nmcarbine

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2020, 05:35:19 PM »
The manual you linked to has them identified as CAI VZ58 rifles, apparently before they renamed them VZ2008.  As you noticed, the example doesn't have the bayonet lug.  You say "removed" which sounds like it had it and it was milled off vs. not having one at all.

I was curious about what the difference was between the generations of CAI builds.  You mention the first ones had VZ barrels.  Does that mean some of the earliest ones had the barrel extension?  Mine doesn't have that, so maybe there are gen 1.5 models?

Perhaps if the pictures were matched with serial ranged one might be able to figure out more.

I heard of the Lothar Walther barrels but thought they were used on other VZ58 rifles as I heard the VZ2008 barrels were Green Mountain?

Would be nice to have an "insider" with that kind of information.  Things are clearer on most modern guns, i.e. gen 1, 2, etc.

Thanks


Offline RSR

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2020, 02:30:40 AM »
The manual you linked to has them identified as CAI VZ58 rifles, apparently before they renamed them VZ2008.  As you noticed, the example doesn't have the bayonet lug.  You say "removed" which sounds like it had it and it was milled off vs. not having one at all.

I was curious about what the difference was between the generations of CAI builds.  You mention the first ones had VZ barrels.  Does that mean some of the earliest ones had the barrel extension?  Mine doesn't have that, so maybe there are gen 1.5 models?

Perhaps if the pictures were matched with serial ranged one might be able to figure out more.

I heard of the Lothar Walther barrels but thought they were used on other VZ58 rifles as I heard the VZ2008 barrels were Green Mountain?

Would be nice to have an "insider" with that kind of information.  Things are clearer on most modern guns, i.e. gen 1, 2, etc.

Thanks



That skeleton stock and photo are exactly the same as single stack CSA imports that Czechpoint sells.  You can find them on Czechpoint's website.

Bayo lug has to be removed to import it as a "sporter" rifle -- and it also has to be imported as a single stack.  Any changes, like to double-stack require 922r compliance, which is a specified # of US parts.

Prior to Czechpoint there were at least 4 US vendors who had their their names stamped on Dtechnic rifles.  It appears that Century might have at one point as well.
I'd call this gen Alpha or something instead of 1, b/c it isn't a VZ2008 in anything but name. 

Yes, VZ2008s all have Green Mountain barrels AFAIK.

The main difference in VZ2008 generations is in who made the receivers, some dimensions on the receivers, and the serial number of the same. 

Offline nmcarbine

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2020, 09:40:23 PM »
Hello again sir,

I saw them on their site but it doesn't appear that the receiver was re-milled like I assume they would have to do make it a double stack?

I knew dropping the bayo lug was sometimes done, but not always, i.e. the WASR-10 that comes in with bayo lug.

Did you see that I put the S/N on the forum topic discussing serials.  I saw this there:

1st Gen, VZ0011XX (~1,100 Lowest serial number in this thread)

I mentioned that mine was VZ0022XX so that mine was mid range it seemed, unless I don't understand how they were issued.  Even if they started with serial 1001, a 11xx was reported and mine would be another 1100 later?

would the guy with the 11xx also have an "alpha then" 

For rookies, it would be interesting that if where the gens were listed, it would mention what differentiated the different gens so a person could confirm their gun matched the appropriate gen.

Does Century respond to requests about the specifics of their guns by S/N?  I know I can call S&W or whoever and the will tell me date made, first buyer, etc.

Thanks for confirming the info on Green Mtn.  Is there any consensus on their quality, like compared to the Walthers?

Since it doesn't seem there are any stampings on the receiver (that I have found) that would determine who made it, you did mention dimensions.  Is there something I could measure that would help reduce the uncertainty?

Sure appreciate your help and wealth of info...

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ Newbie VZ2008 Purchase
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2020, 03:24:44 PM »
Try giving Century a call.  Century doesn't disclose who makes their VZ2008 receivers.  One gen had B&R Machine engraved on it, so that's the only reason we know.

Provided it was a competent double-stack conversion, about the only way you could tell would be slight differences in paint hues.

You'll have to reach out the lower serial number person and have a greater discussion. Serial #s were just self-reported w/o photos.

Like I said, this gun/any Century VZ being apparently Czech-made is news to me.