H4831 from 1945

[MTczer]

I have some bulk h4831 from 1945. What do you guys think? Can I use it for plinking rounds or should I dispose of it?

[Wobbly]

Plenty of ammo still being shot is WWII surplus.  The useability of the older powders depends more on the storage environment than the name or maker.

? First, what is the color and odor of the powder? Disentergrating powder supposedly turns reddish-brown and gives off a sharp acidic odor. If that is the case, then go sprinkle it on your lawn.

? The powder will never be more powerful than it originally was, so if appearances are good, then you'll be safe to start at a very low load and work up. Careful not to fully trust modern load data for the older powder.  Google may reveal some older load data you can use.

 

[MTczer]

It does smell a little funky. I will check the color. Is it good for your lawn or something?

[Wobbly]

Any old powder can smell "funky". That could be as simple as old, stale air in the can. And the nitric acid is always leaching out in very minute amounts. (That's what discolors your powder hopper when you leave powder in place.)

What you're looking for is the gray graphite being displaced, and maybe some internal damage to the old paper can these powders used to come in. Acidic corrosion of the steel screw-on cap whould also be a big giveaway.

[bobanddog]

In addition to Wobbly's comments, were the containers sealed when you got them?  If not, my biggest concern would be whether or not that's actually H4831 in them, or if it was replaced or contaminated with something else.   If in doubt, fertilize your garden with it.

Ultimately, it's you who will be firing this stuff if you decide to use it, not me.

[tommeboy]

Most of that 4831 came in brown paper bags. If it looks fine it is fine.

[MTczer]

It is in an emptied shot gun powder plastic jug clearly marked h4831 with the manufacture date. I new the owner before me and he wouldn't miss label anything. 

[Wobbly]

I think a lot of the older powder containers brought on their own demise. The older type containers, with steel screw-on caps were sensitive to the nitric acid and static electricity.

So I take it the powder is presently being stored in a modern, black plastic powder container? That's a special anti-static container, which is a good thing. Now all you need to do is control the temperature and humidity.

 

[ReloaderFred]

In 1945, there was no H4831, only IMR 4831.  Bruce Hodgdon got into the powder business buying up surplus World War II powders in bulk and repackaging it.  He was buying in 55 gallon drums in some cases.  His early powder were packaged in roll top paper bags, similar to the old coffee bean bags, which is probably what they were, only with his printing on them.  I still have a one pound paper bag of that old powder.

Oh, and when I first bought it in 1963, it was .35 cents a pound...........

Hodgdon didn't distribute his own label of newly manufactured powders until the surplus powders ran out, and that was long after the war was over.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Riptide439]

That is interesting Fred. Thanks.
20 years after WWII and the stuff was still being repackaged.
How the heck did they know how the powder performed? Was it all rifle related?

[ReloaderFred]

All the surplus powders I remember from that time were rifle powders.  There was a lot of IMR 4895 left over from loading the .30-06, and IMR 4831, which I believe was the powder used for the 20mm cannon rounds in the aircraft the Navy, Marine Corps and Army Air Corps used during the war.  IMR 4895 was specifically formulated for the M1 Garand and it's gas system.  IMR 4831 is too slow for the gas system of the Garand, and will result in bent op rods.

Bruce Hodgdon was no dummy.  I'm sure he tested each batch, but it's pretty easy to tell if gunpowder has gone bad.  It will have a red dust on it and a very strong smell.  I've opened one can of bad powder and there was no doubt it had turned bad.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[ReloaderFred]

Bruce Hodgdon started in 1947 by buying 50,000 pounds of surplus IMR 4895.  He sold powder as a sideline, since his fulltime job was as a salesman in another industry.  He was an avid hunter and reloader, and had read about the many tons of gunpowder that had been dumped in the ocean after World War I, so he thought there should be a better use for the powder left over from the Second World War.  He borrowed on his life insurance policy to make his first purchase.

In 1952, he quit his job as a salesman and went fulltime selling powder, along with his wife and sons.  The surplus powders ran out in the mid 1960's, so he looked around for vendors who could make powders to his specifications.  All their powders are made by vendors, and Hodgdon is the distributor. 

Bruce is also largely responsible for being able to order powders to be delivered to a residence.  He lobbied Congress on our (and his) behalf and got it made legal to ship powders to reloaders.

They acquired the IMR brand in 2001 and the Winchester brand in 2004.  The Winchester powders are made by St. Marks Powder Co., a division of General Dynamics, and the only producer of ball powders in the U.S.  The other powders are made in Canada and Australia for the most part, while some powders are made in Europe and Israel, as well as South Africa.

If you'd really like more history of Hodgdon, here's a link to an interview with Bruce's grandson, Chris Hodgdon: 

I've talked to Chris Hodgdon at the SHOT Show and he's very, very knowledgeable about powders, and an avid reloader.  He's also a nice guy.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Wobbly]

Fred and I were both expounding upon an earlier post at the very same time. Fred's post above is far more complete and detailed than the one I posted (below) just seconds later. However, I'll let it stay...

In 1945, there was no H4831, only IMR 4831.  Bruce Hodgdon got into the powder business buying up surplus World War II powders in bulk and repackaging it.  He was buying in 55 gallon drums in some cases.  His early powder was packaged in roll top paper bags, similar to the old coffee bean bags, which is probably what they were, only with his printing on them.

Thanks, Fred.

So to make Fred's story a little clearer. There was only one 4831 during the 40's and 50's. That was IMR 4831. When the military surplus ran out, then Hodgdon started importing something close to it. Thus we got H4831. Close, but not an exact replacement. That's why you can't swap the load data.

Hodgdon to this very day has never made powder, they have simply distributed other people's powder. All of Hodgdon's modern powders are imports from Australia, western Europe and Africa, renamed to protect the identity.

 

[ReloaderFred]

One slight correction, Wobbly.  The St. Marks Powder Co., which makes the Winchester Ball Powders, is located in St. Marks, Florida.  Even though Florida has been invaded by people from the Northeast and the Caribbean, we haven't kicked them out of the Union just yet.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[MTczer]

Wow great info thanks guys.