Author Topic: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!  (Read 20655 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline 71Barracuda

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2014, 07:53:52 PM »
Citizen Pete,
Great post!  It's been 16 days since the first post. Has the 5th VZ58 arrived?
What's your vision for the new "Devil made me do it" necessaty?

Offline CitizenPete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2014, 09:05:40 PM »
That is the VZ carbine (pistol) I ordered, in the pics and url link above, along with the DOJ and ATF paperwork signed by my Sheriff and mailed in to begin the big wait. 6-8 months for approval.  Paper work is for the SBR and the Kestral Suppressor.

Now I need input / help selecting:

Muzzle attachments - DONE: Special forces 2 piece flash hider, Kestral AK-47 suppressor with modified omni-mount for 14mmRH
stock - standard metal, modified Bulgarian, Fab defense/Mako, other?
iron sights - peep sight, etc?
optic(s), already have the side rail
forend - leave stock, rails, wood, etc?
color - black, city camo, flectarn, other?
accessories - extended mag release, extended bolt release, ambi-safety, etc?
other - ?

Plain and simple or Swiss-Army-KnifeMare

This



Or something like this:



,,,or something in between?

Maybe I should have a contest and offer a nice prize for whoever comes up with the best suggestions that I end up going with?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 09:58:13 PM by CitizenPete »
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline jwc007

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8729
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2014, 01:17:29 AM »
Plain and Simple could work for me, but "something in between" could also work so long as the mods are kept truly practical.  Then again everyone has their idea of what that is.

My Vz2008 is outfitted as show below, which I consider to be that "something in between".


Vz2008 with upgrades
BoneSteel upper and lower front handguards
Mako Pistol Grip
Mako Folding Adjustable Stock
Slovakian Muzzle Break
Hammers Red/Green Dot Sight
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline CitizenPete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 02:15:34 AM »
Plain and Simple could work for me, but "something in between" could also work so long as the mods are kept truly practical.  Then again everyone has their idea of what that is.

My Vz2008 is outfitted as show below, which I consider to be that "something in between".

Very nice build that you put together. Which side does the folder go?

I too have configured another VZ.58 (OOW VZ2000) in almost a similar manner to be a tactical rifle, FAB Stock without the folder. It will be utilized during tactical day courses, however I am afraid of the "Gremlin", so there will be a backup if he (the Gremlin) makes an appearance (either SIG556R or AKM-SGL21).

Here is mine (phone pic):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz4wYeFVkjPtOXg4RFFnek5SX0U/edit?usp=sharing
Note the silver OOW gas port fitting.
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline Sheepdog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 574
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 03:56:47 AM »
That is the VZ carbine (pistol) I ordered, in the pics and url link above, along with the DOJ and ATF paperwork signed by my Sheriff and mailed in to begin the big wait. 6-8 months for approval.  Paper work is for the SBR and the Kestral Suppressor.

Now I need input / help selecting:

Muzzle attachments - DONE: Special forces 2 piece flash hider, Kestral AK-47 suppressor with modified omni-mount for 14mmRH
This sounds good to me.

stock - standard metal, modified Bulgarian, Fab defense/Mako, other?
I like the standard metal folding stock. I find it's fine to shoot with and it folds down into a handy little package. If you want to go more modern, you could try a buttstock from CAA: http://store.commandarms.com/products/CBSM.html This is what the Czechs (and Slovaks?) used/use when they were modernizing their 58s. Grab a stock adapter and buffer tube and pick your preferred color. You could go the modern stock route as well as getting a folding stock. But the metal hinged stocks are STUPID expensive from FAB. I don't dis polymer. But I'm not sure on the long term durability of a folding FAB stock that has a polymer joint.

iron sights - peep sight, etc?
I'd just leave the irons as is. For the short sight radius and the round. I don't see much advantage in going the peep route.

optic(s), already have the side rail
You probably haven't gone this route on your other OOW 58's. So since the receiver should already be drilled and tapped and you have the side rail. I'd go ahead and get the optic mount. Optic depends on what brand and sight picture you like. Plus how much money you want to spend. If you mount an optic on the optic mount. You'll want to make sure it doesn't extend much, if at all. Into the ejection area of the receiver. I like EOTech.

forend - leave stock, rails, wood, etc?
If you plan to get the optic mount. You could leave the forend alone. Unless you really like a forward grip or decide to mount a forward optic. Then get some railed forends.

color - black, city camo, flectarn, other?
It depends on what you have done to your other 58's. What role (if any) this soon to be carbine will have. And where you live. A nice original-ish gray finish would be good. And it would work for an urban environment as well. If you plan to run/train with this gun hard. I'd just go the rattle can route if it going to get dinged up anyways. No point spending $300 on a fancy Cerakote job I think just to scrape it up.

accessories - extended mag release, extended bolt release, ambi-safety, etc?
If any of these float your boat. None are 100% necessary. But some would be nice. Like the bolt release.

other - ?
????
Of course you could keep it stock as well. Or just install the side rail/optic mount and add your favored optic.


Offline jwc007

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8729
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 01:37:35 PM »
Very nice build that you put together. Which side does the folder go?

Thankyou!  :)  I like your Vz2000's build too!

My Mako Stock is currently configured to fold to the left side.
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline CitizenPete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2014, 06:06:56 PM »
Update:


As the long wait for the ATF approval begins for the SBR (Firearm Manufacturer Registration Tax Stamp), and the Suppressor (Transfer Registration Tax Stamp), there are a few items that can be added to the carbine now (rails, muzzle attachments) and some final decisions to be made (optics options, butstock options).

The back-plate weld can NOT be removed and the stock can't be added yet (unless orange is a good color for you - for about the next 15 years), but we can pretend!

CSA Optic mount side rail added.  Since the CSA VZ.58 receiver already comes drilled and tapped, it's easy peasey to remove the two plugs, de-grease the holes and lock-tight the rail in place.



(Overpriced - "only-200-made"...) Czech Special Forces two-piece muzzle break was acquired and is shown here added to the carbine. Only the best muzzle climb reduction available for this carbine.  Supposedly this break provides 80% reduction in muzzle climb and 60% reduction in recoil, which would certainly be a help with a carbine length barrel.



Midwest Industries optic mount with a Vortex red dot was off borrowed off an AKM-47 (optic rails are the same), and is a definite NO GO option (without an added deflector), as it slants way forward over the receiver and shells will eject directly up into the mount and the optic.



Here is the CSA high optic mount shown mounted to the rail -- a definite mounting option, depending on the operation at hand and the type of stock installed.  Shown below with a Trijicon TAG13a ACOG optic w/QD, specifically designed for the 7.62x39 bullet trajectory.   A CSA low optic mount, which would cover up the use of the iron sights, could also be utilized, esp. with a red dot sight and a low "jaw-weld" standard folding metal stock option.  The Fab Defense stock was borrowed off another rifle to see what it would look like set behind the carbine. They are not connected in any manner (no orange jump suit for me please).



The Trijicon 3X ACOG optic looks good on the carbine (albeit a bit high), however will the 7.62x39  bullet drop of the ACOG reticle still be correct with the short barrel carbine?  OK, who am I kidding? They don't call me "Pray-and-spray" for nothing. 



With the high optic mount, the iron sights would still be available for use underneath, regardless of the optic type.  This would be a good option for close combat iron sight back up.  (Other than the battle proven ACOG, which has a horseshoe reticle that is lit up by natural light and tritium, a typical red dot or other battery powered optic on the mount could always fail).  Having said that the mount on the rail itself is quick disconnect too.



Below is the future SBR Carbine with mock-up stock which is shown behind the receiver about the correct distance as if it was attached to a tube or folder joint.  Shown here next to another legal length VZ.58 rifle. The VZ.58 rifle is an OOW with a pinned/welded Czech style flash hider (which is required to be "permanently" attached within the US) making the rifle barrel length about 17" long. 

Both stocks being equal (folding or not), we are only talking about 5" difference in the possible total length. I'm going through a lot of BS and a paying a $200 tax stamp for a difference of just under 5" in length.   (That's an 11.81" Carbine barrel measured w/o any muzzle attachment vs. 17ish" barrel which includes the pinned and welded Czech style flash hider on the rifle.  I really lub the guberment rules.  /sarc.

The Kestrel 7.62 AK suppressor will add 6.5" replacing the Czech Special Forces flash hider on the Carbine when in use -- for a total barrel length of about 17.3" inches when operating in a suppressed configuration.  This would make the total length of the Carbine around 28" with a standard stock folded and add another 8.27" with the standard folding stock extended for about 36" total length.  (If all my math calcs are correct.)



NOTE: Right click the two photos below and select "Open Image in New Tab" to see the entire picture [/B]







Nobody stopped me yet, so I continue to build.

Note: Original post is here with re-sized pictures: http://vz59.blogspot.com/2014/05/vz58-sbr-build-update.html  Can someone please send me a PM or e-mail and explain how to re-size pictures on this forum (or send me a link with posted instructions)?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 12:44:52 PM by CitizenPete »
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline CitizenPete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
UPDATE: Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2014, 05:11:37 PM »
Update on CSA SBR build.  Obviously Tax Stamp for SBR and Suppressor are dragging on like anything the government does that requires thought and pushing paper.

Additions specifically for this build:
--------------------------------------
Zendl Mag release TMR
Zendl Bolt release TBR
Royally Screwed Regulate VZ side rail and upper AKOG low mount bracket ( have the CSA high mount in reserve.)
TAG33-13 Trijicon ACOG 3x30  - Green Horseshoe 7.62x39 ballistics reticle 
Tenebraex Killflash for ACOG 3x30
Dayglow type iron sight leaf (Red) and post(green)  (front post is having threading issues though)

The ACOG with the Killflash appear to be clear of ejecting shells.

So far, it likes the Special Forces break the best over the Zendl - review still to come (sorry for delay RSR)

Man o' man that SIGTac SB15 Stabilizing Brace is starting to look good as a stop gap while waiting for the ATF Manufactures Tax Stamp.  It wasn't offered by CZechPoint when I ordered my pistol.



CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2014, 07:54:42 PM »
Looking good. And look forward to the review.

In related news, it sounds like though the original 1980s-1990s sf brake is officially sold out, the factory that make them still has the specs and machinery...  So more can be made.  And they'd come in just a little more pricey than the Zendl. 

SF bayonets are a month or so out, finally.

Offline monkey3ddd

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2014, 09:40:26 PM »
You guys and your fancy sbr states. No love in Iowa...

:(

Offline jwc007

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8729
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2014, 10:34:20 PM »
Till the BATFE paperwork is done, how about using a Sig Brace for an AK Pistol instead?  Something I would consider, should I acquire a Vz58 Pistol in the Future.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/09/century-arms-stabilizing-brace-ak-pistols/
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline CitizenPete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2014, 10:25:02 AM »
Still no love on the Form 1 or 4 Stamps. Should be soon though.

With the exchange FX volatility the VZ58Rifle folding tube might be reasonable compared to cobbling a stock from parts

I was looking at bits and pieces to make a folder on the ACE site and saw this:

Quote
ACE Ltd. Online Store
Effective Immediately!!

Due to the recent changes in 2nd Amendment laws that are pending or currently enforced by states across the country, the J&T Family of Companies which includes J&T Distributing, DoubleStar Corp., Ace Limited, and the DoubleStar Training Academy has been forced to reassess our policies regarding government and law enforcement sales. Effective immediately, the J&T Family of Companies will be joining other manufacturers and distributors by ceasing sales of regulated items in states that have altered the rights of citizens to keep and bear arms.

The JTFOC will no longer sell prohibited items to law enforcement agencies or any government agencies in states, counties, cities, and municipalities that have enacted restrictive gun control laws against their law abiding citizens.  We hope other companies will join us with their support.  We applaud those already involved with this effort to protect our 2nd Amendment rights.

Be Victorious


Interesting campaign, more power to them!
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline CitizenPete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
SBR (SA VZ58 Carbine) update - ATF Forms delay
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2015, 11:33:56 AM »
VZ.58 Carbine Project
SBR (Short Barrel Rile) Build update:

Perhaps others can learn something from this.

It has been 8 months since I filed my Form 1 (Manufacture of a firearm - required for an SBR) with the BATF for a tax stamp.  At the same time I also filed a Form 4 (NFA item).  I filed for both of these as an individual and NOT through a Firearm Trust (http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/?inf_contact_key=fd1959a683ecd5ef2d3fb272285fd02c66ef1052da999a57338640026e18fd81.

Unfortunately both ATF Forms were returned last month for incorrect/incomplete filing.  Why?  My Sheriff's office has the Chief Deputy sign these documents on behalf of the Sheriff. ATF forms (not for a Firearm Trust) must be signed by the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (LEO).  Unfortunately the Chief Deputy did not put the Sheriffs name and write "by" above his signature, which would have prevented these Forms from being returned. 

Lesson learned: Don't assume that the Sheriff's office is completing the ATF Form correctly. Check and double check their work before sending your forms into the ATF.

Since the Forms were returned the Sherrif signed them himself, and they were resubmitted to the ATF for approval.  The NFA (Form 4) tax stamp was approved and received.  However, per my phone call this morning with the ATF the manufacturers (Form 1) tax stamp is still being processed in ATF's Martinsburg WV office.  I explained that I had recieved my Form 4 stamp which was submitted at the same time, and the response I got from the agent was "It all depends who is working on it."  So, if the ATF agent processing your form is peering out from behind a 3 foot stack of applications, and happens to be out sick with the flu for a week, your application is going to sit? Really, is it luck of draw, so to speak?

I find this whole situation strange, because a local friend of mine had his ATF Forms completed by the same Chief at the same Sheriffs office, and I assume, in the same manner, yet his Forms did not get returned.

Lesson #2 learned: Processing time for ATF Forms greatly depend on the processing agent assigned to process your paperwork,  and there is nothing (to my knowledge) you can do to influence this.

Note on owning buttstocks during the waiting period.
According to the ATF owning a stock capable and intended to to install on this firearm is not allowed until the Form 1 and TAX stamp is issued.  Don't know how to get around this since I have multiple VZ buttstocks from and for other long gun projects on the shelf.  The specific stock for this project has not yet been acquired and the back plate and sling swivel on the back of this pistol is still intact as is the weld has not been cut. In other words, it is not yet possible to install a buttstock on this gun without removing the weld and adding a suitable adapter or buttock already adapted to fit.  So as far as intent, I believe that I am well within the law.


922R
Another set of issues I have been "edge-u-micated" on during this project, is the morass of interpretations regarding 922R compliance, specifically in regards to converting a legally imported foreign manufacture pistol and converting it to an SBR under a Form 1.  This is a topic that is already coming up on this website within the EVO Forum, and I will be watching it closely.  (esp. since someone posted that CZ has asked for a BATF opinion on the EVO3 S1 SBR -- however I don't know if that is hearsay, wishful thinking, or truth).   IMO some manufacturers are hesitant to ask the ATF for opinion, because a response in the negative pretty much shuts those projects down, and as is empirically proved there are often confusing and conflicting opinions and definitions from the BATF.   

I have had several email exchanges with the manufacturer's importer on 922R compliance, specifically in regards to the VZ.58 762 Pistol.  There is a lot of information I can share, but this post is long enough.  After reviewing the information and opinions from the importer have done some of my own research and have decided to take the chicken-shiza way out. I have recently worked down to limit configuration of 10 imported parts (actually 9, giving me muzzle break flexibility) for on this project. Needless to say, sacrifices and trade-offs have been made.   >:(   Perhaps a separate future post detailing that topic.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
infringe
Syllabification: in?fringe
verb (infringes, infringing, infringed)
Act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on: his legal rights were being infringed

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Must be referring to muskets!
 
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline CitizenPete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1260
    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2015, 07:38:45 PM »
Hizah! The ATF agent was leading me into the darkness and was wrong.  My second stamp for the Form 1 came today in the mail! 

Finally I can build this VZ carbine.
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: I bought yet another VZ.58 today. Somebody stop me!
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2015, 10:14:33 PM »
Till the BATFE paperwork is done, how about using a Sig Brace for an AK Pistol instead?  Something I would consider, should I acquire a Vz58 Pistol in the Future.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/09/century-arms-stabilizing-brace-ak-pistols/

Per the BATF's latest sig brace letter, "intent" is what matters -- if you ultimately intend for it to be an SBR, you'd be even deeper in the legal gray if you ultimately want the weapon to become an sbr...