Author Topic: VZ58 556/7.62x39?  (Read 5202 times)

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Offline munchie3409

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VZ58 556/7.62x39?
« on: May 28, 2014, 10:25:11 AM »
I was hoping that someone would know what parts are common between the 556/7.62 variants.  In particular the bolt carrier.  I'm looking to purchasing the 556 pistol and I prefer that the charging handle be on the left side of the pistol.  I see on VZ58rifle's website that they offer a left side charging handle and I wanted to make sure it would work on 556 pistol.

Also, does anyone know if Morgan is offering the left side charging handle as a service?

I'm also assuming that I may have the issue with needing to have the bolt carrier tabbed?

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ58 556/7.62x39?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 03:08:22 PM »
Morgan said he'd do the carriers, but just weld. 

VZ58rifle.com has a right hand that's pinned and welded.  Also the lightning carriers are available for the VZ58 (welds there as well).   The problem with welds on the left side for right handed shooters is that if/when those welded handles break they usually end up in your face...

The reason everything that protudes is on the right is due to that design requirement during development to ensure that there was nothing that the rifle would catch on when carried by the sling.  Modern requirements obviously differ for this rifle's primary/best suited role of a (high speed) carbine.

For the 5.56, I'd imagine the only differences are the bolt (not bolt carrier), possibly a higher/taller extractor, a different (probably smaller) port where the barrel connects to the gas block (fixing here would allow the piston face to remain the same), and maybe some different spring (likely just recoil) tension.  Otherwise, shouldn't be too many differences, nor is it in the interest of the manufacturer to have a lot of different spare parts.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 07:15:58 AM by RSR »

Offline munchie3409

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Re: VZ58 556/7.62x39?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 10:56:52 PM »
I got a reply from VZ58 stating that their left side charging handle would work on a 556 pistol.

I'm leaning towards buying the VZ58 pistol versus buying a PAP M85NP.  Both pistols offer AR15 mag adapter, which is what I want since I own so many AR15 mags.

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ58 556/7.62x39?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2014, 10:58:11 PM »
What  barrel length are you looking at?  Are you putting a stock on it?  To my knowledge there aren't any of the stock arm braces available for the VZ58 available yet either as well, which IMO is a requirement if shooting a rifle round -- a major improvement in accuracy for sure.

For anything shorter than 10", you're ahead to go with a pistol caliber weapon if you're wanting practical utility rather than a flamethrower to show off with at the range... 

The 5.56/.223 round is designed for an 18-20" barrel.  Anything less than 10" with this caliber, shooting indoors or in a vehicle is subjecting you to the equivalent of a flash bang grenade from both muzzle blast and flash.  The flash and blast is basically wasted energy and this study recommends running 5.56/.223 in nothing shorter than 14.5".  (Also and not noted in this article, much of the increased malfunctions of the M4 weapon platform relative to the M16 have been attributed to extraction issues with the straight wall 5.56 round and the case still being under considerable pressure when the extraction process begins [extra extractor wear, stuck cases, stripped rims, weak extraction, etc] -- point being, short barreled 5.56 weapons create a reliability concern/liability as well.) http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093

Jim Fuller of Rifle Dynamics (one of if not the best AK builder in the US & formerly a professional soldier and security contractor himself) recommends the 5.45x39 over 7.62x39 based upon his experience with an 8" 7.62 krink that had a malfunction he was trying to fix and slammed fired into his truck (he was working on it at the range on his tailgate).  It pierced one layer of his bed but only dented his cab -- a lot of his business w/ the Krinks are professional soldiers/security contractors who do vehicle convoy security, etc, where they require a rifle but also require an SBR to actually be able to deploy quickly and for whom penetration through cover (like vehicle sheet metal) is important...  He sells only weapons he'd personally entrust his life to, which I respect.  And he does sell 10" 7.62x39 Krink, which is the shortest he'd recommend (it's pricey at $3k however): http://rifledynamics.com/collections/kalashnikov-firearms-combloc-guns/products/yugoslavian-m-92-side-folder-krink-7-62x39
Most of his shortened rifles in both 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 (both rounds designed for 16" barrels and the 5.45x39 being lower velocity and less velocity dependent for incapacitation, 7n6 was a tumbling round) are in the 12.5" barrel length range.  Works great for soviet calibers, but not so great for NATO...

Worth a read on 7.62x39, but anything 10" to it's originally designed for 16" makes a lot of sense with that round: http://demigodllc.com/articles/7.62x39-improving-the-military-standard/?p=3

The VZ58 pistol that Czechpoint sells is the same setup as the VZ58 carbine with a 12" barrel.  IMO, all things considered, you're ahead to go with a 7.62 rifle in this range and for SBRs the Colt 9mm AR Carbine or even a Keltec Sub 2k

I went through this all awhile bakc looking at building a MicroGalil.  http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?74783-Micro-Galil-Utility-amp-Purposes Ultimately decided against it.  For comparison, the Microgalil has an 8" barrel and is 27.8" long.  The Keltec Sub2k with pistol grip mag location and 16" barrel is 29.5" long.  Running a lightweight 90gr corbon +P in the sub2k has a velocity of 1751 FPS and muzzle energy of 613 ft lbs.  The 8" Microgalil has a muzzle velocity of 2329 fps, and energy of 662 ft lbs with 55gr and 747 ft lbs with 62gr.   
So the 9mm  round out of a carbine length barrel runs 93% of the energy of a 55gr 5.56 and 82% of the energy of a 62gr 5.56.  And the weapon length is less than 2" difference, no NFA, and the muzzle flash is nearly nonexistent and muzzle blast isn't much more than a 22lr rifle.  http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

Something to think about -- and the 9mm like the 7.62x39 maintains most of these increased velocity gains down to around 10" or so barrels too.  (From 11-15" gains only about 4-7% add'l velocity). Out of pistols, most 9mm rounds push mid 300s in ft lbs of energy -- so at a higher velocity, you know not only are you hitting with equivalent energy of an SBR 5.56, but your bullets themselves, designed to perform/incapacitate at lower velocities, will almost surely perform/open as or better than was exhibited in the pistol-based tests of ammunition manufacturers (you're not relying exclusively on velocity/fragmentation/hydrostatic forces to incapacitate like a 5.56 round). 
Cost-wise, 9mm and 7.62x39 are roughly equivalent with 5.56 range ammo running at least 25% more and self defense equivalent rounds to cheaper but highly effect 9mm JHPs like the 9BPLE running easily double the cost. 

I'm rambling, but if your goal is to have a compact rifle that you can use easily indoors in CQB scenarios and want to avoid NFA, then some of the 9mm carbines with pistol grip mag wells like the Keltec (budget) or fixed stock Uzi (more $) or 14" Colt 9mm Carbine (more $ and NFA-- you can run a slide fire with this [or non-NFA 16.5"] too, which is pretty awesome) are worth a look.  If you want a compact general purpose rifle, a shortened 7.62x39 is definitely appealing.  If you want a general purpose carbine with mag and ammo commonality in 5.56, then I'd look at either a 15" w/ pinned muzzle device or 16" standard carbine as otherwise, you're wasting a lot of caliber's potential -- again that muzzle blast and flash is just wasted energy and $ that's just annoying and counterproductive to using your weapon as effectively and efficiently as you'd otherwise be able.

My solution currently is pistol carbine for Home defense/CQB indoors/wife trunk gun.  My 7.62x39 VZ58s for general purpose carbines (ideally w/in 150m but good out to 300m -- so since I live in an urban/suburban environment most of my needs here and would also work in dense brush/forests common throughout the US; red dot optics only here), and my 5.56 galils as intermediate/mid range rifles (ideally w/in 300m but competent out to 500m -- configured as DMRs with 1-6x optics), and then full caliber rifles for ranges beyond that.   Frankly, full caliber rifles cost so much to shoot these days that for me, scoped bolt actions make the most sense for me for long distance needs. 

Now if you reload and run polymer tipped or other expensive/custom bullets, a lot of my 5.56 SBR criticism goes out the window, but off the shelf common ammo is not really suited for SBR use in 5.56...  Also, should note, that folks have found the Wolf Gold .223 to work best in 223 carbines and to perform fully in full length barrels (unsure of muzzle flash but should be in line/reduced with the faster burning powder), so that's a possible good option for military standard 14.5" M4 barrels and probably better than similarly priced alternatives out of a 12" barrel.

Basically, under no circumstances would I recommend the VZ58 compact in 223 with it's 7" barrel, despite it being featured prominently on Strikeback:


The 12" carbine/pistol has utility but it's more of niche than general purpose IMO and the 7.62x39 in the same length is a much better option. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 07:50:48 AM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ58 556/7.62x39?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 05:24:18 PM »
Found these vids today.

Appear to be the same rifle in both.

7.62x39 7" Czechpoint.

Look at that muzzle flash -- and shooter apprehension:

http://youtu.be/exkx9QTJ4gM

http://youtu.be/6bLWt19YV_s

http://youtu.be/jV0ltBlENCg
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:28:28 PM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ58 556/7.62x39?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2019, 12:29:03 AM »
Good vid of 5.56/.223 vs 7.62x39:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am5avCq64oU

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: VZ58 556/7.62x39?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 09:02:59 AM »
Unfortunately, the first part of the video covering the AK in 7.62x39 is largely missing, but this test by the USMC on barrier penetration shows that the 7.62x39 is superior to 5.56:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lprGoEpDXJQ