Preferred optics for the vz.58?

[RSR]

Yes.  Approx lower 1/3rd, not absolute.  Bonesteel is closer to absolute...

[gwvt]

Thanks, that's just what I wanted to know.

[smokemup]

I had a chance to play with two of the 'big boys' today, the EOTech EXPS3 and the Aimpoint PRO. After reading reviews and specs, I really wanted the EOTech, even though it's a bit chunky. The specs on their holographic technology, even though not all that realistic, it does use a laser diode to give the projection. Wiki the specs to be impressed. This was the first time I picked one up, and wow, what a crushing blow! The reticle is awful (to me). I'm used to red dots that are bright and solid sharp dots and this took me by surprise. This model had the single dot with a 65 or so MOA circle with partial crosshairs. The presentation look so grainy, I though I needed to make some type of adjustment. Nope, I was told that's the way they are but people really like it. Wha? Even the center dot was grainy, like the entire circle-dot picture was one big fuzz ball. Now usually I try to reason through the positives, especially given the popularity. But perhaps that "popularity" is because the military bought it for field use? Who knows. All's I know is that I would never consider one. So moving on to the Aimpoint PRO (patrol Rifle Optics)...

Wow, this sucker looks good and rugged. But priceeeey. I looked at one of the smaller ones as well, one you'd use on a pistol, and it's even pricier at around $800ish. Well made, though, but the EOTech also appeared to be well made and rugged. Not that I care since it's poison to me now.    So anyway, playing with the Aimpoint showed it to be very simple and to the point, and a decent 2 MOA red dot. Pretty clear, too. I liked it! But I didn't buy a thing. Why?

Because I already have a 2 MOA red dot Holosun... The $170 one that came with two mounts and has similar specs to the Aimpoint. Is it as rugged? I don't know, but probably not. Is the dot as good? Yes, every bit and might even be a bit sharper. I'm trying hard to be pretty honest about this because there's such a massive price difference. I know my Holosun is made well, is accurate, and I know it holds zero. They both have equal battery lives at 50k hours, and the Holosun has a few different ways of handling on/off. Aimpoint, you just leave the sucker on and never worry about it for years. The Holosun has a timed cut off, but turning it on is just a matter of bumping the rifle (or press a button).

Some folks have complained that the Holosun base (some models) has to be removed to change the battery. That's true, but it's 50k hours! How often are you going to be taking it apart? I also looks like the Primary Arms models are either made by Holosun or clones, so you have more options.

So there ya go. I'm thinking it was time to move up to a better sight when all along I had something that's near good enough to the best there is in an Aimpoint, so I think I'll just stay with what I have. As far as I know I'm not going into battle, and I have many rounds through my VZ now to know the Holosun will hold up. For the price difference I think I'll just buy lots of ammo. No wait, I can just buy another VZ if PSA ever offers them again!   

 

[CitizenPete]

@smokemup

Thanks for posting your thoughts.  I have the same trouble with the EOtech reticle - not my cup of tea either.  I think you either love them or hate them, not too many opinions in between.

The Aimpoint is certainly a top of the line un-magnified optic and worth every penny if your in theater where your life depends on it or if you have the cash to own them as a lifetime investment.

Nothing wrong with PA, Holosun, etc. as they are great red dots. 

I did finally get to operate the new Burris Fastfire III reflex on my Sa.58 SBR during a 3 gun match this past weekend and it was very good.  Easy target acquisition, clear, bright dot - crisp enough for up to 100 yards, maintained zero with all the bumping and moving. I would recommend it.

My intention is to mount it on a 45 deg. offset for close target acquisition and keep the 3X Trijicon ACOG (7.62x39 BDC reticle) as the primary optic for anything 75-100++ meters.  The ACOG being 3X makes it difficult for me to acquire close targets through the sight, but easier to aim long distance,  while the rod dots are hard for me to target at distances much past 100m. 

It sucks to get old.  I might not be able to move fast, but at least my eyesight is poor. 

[smokemup]

It sucks to get old.  I might not be able to move fast, but at least my eyesight is poor. 

Pretty funny stuff. On a positive note there's the, uh, er, well ok then, never mind. 

[Lomx138]

@smokemup

My intention is to mount it on a 45 deg. offset for close target acquisition and keep the 3X Trijicon ACOG (7.62x39 BDC reticle) as the primary optic for anything 75-100++ meters.  The ACOG being 3X makes it difficult for me to acquire targets through the sight, but easier to aim,  while the rod dots are hard for me to target at distances must past 100. 

It sucks to get old.  I might not be able to move fast, but at least my eyesight is poor. 

Mind saying what mount you're using for 45 degree offset?

[gwvt]

Well, I ordered a PA fixed-base microdot and got it 4 days later. I took it out and zeroed it today at 25m. I still have to continue getting used to it and may try it with a 50m zero but overall, I'm pretty impressed with the thing for the price. It's way better than the blurry iron sights and certainly helps me get on target faster with less eyestrain. I'm almost sorry I waited so long but I prefer to be proficient with iron sights on a firearm if it has 'em, blurry or not. I can confirm that it's about a lower 1/3 co-witness on the NEA rail.

[bugboy]

But what if you want to shoot out 400 meters?

Bring a different gun.

I have used my 2008 with a TRS-25 out to 280 yds at "tactical carbine" matches.  The gun and I did as well or better than most of the AR guys with non-magnified red dots.

[CitizenPete]

@smokemup

My intention is to mount it on a 45 deg. offset for close target acquisition   

Mind saying what mount you're using for 45 degree offset?

Havent order one yet.  There are lots on eBay, Amazon, etc.  for under $50.  I saw a 45 deg. offset at a gun store that was over $200   ... all that makes be wonder what to consider when purchasing.

[omar787]

Hey CP so where did you plan to put the 45 degree of seton the back or in the front rail sorry bout the ? I never use one of this before in a 762-39 rifle 

[CitizenPete]

Hey CP so where did you plan to put the 45 degree of seton the back or in the front rail sorry bout the ? I never use one of this before in a 762-39 rifle 

I guess I will put it off to the right side on the furthest point back on the front top rail (over the gas rod).  I might have to play with it a bit to see what works best.  I really would also like to figure out how I can get 45 deg. irons on the gun so I could use them for CQ target in conjunction with having a magnified optic also mounted (ACOG) as to be legal in Practical 3Gun Class.

[RSR]

I am not sure as to how ideal this optic is for the VZ58, but I recently acquired a vortex spitfire 1x (prism optic, like acogs) and have been very impressed.



Regarding CP's last post -- the 3x version it has rails on the optic to allow for a 1x optic mount...


Back to the 1x:
-the recticle is etched so in event of battery failure you can still have a point of aim unlike red dots (excluding backup irons -- why I really like cowitnessing red dots on the VZ58)
-it weighs 11.2 oz (per spec sheet) with mount and battery vs 3.7oz aimpoint micro and riser for same height (~3 oz) puts it at ~7 oz, so ~4oz heavier
-4" long vs aimpoint micro at 2.4"
-there is an ocular adjustment wheel which means w/ less than perfect sight you can adjust the optic to make the reticle crisp
-has both red and green illumination vs most red dots w/ just one color
-does not have an illuminated setting low enough for night vision -- but you can do the old trick where you close the front cap and with both eyes open, it allows minute of man aiming at cqb ranges...  And yes, you can use nv on the eye that's not the optic...  Not ideal, but would work.
-it does have caps for both front and rear.
-and vortex also has a killflash for this optic as well (important for me as 1) it protects the front lens and 2) kills flash
-battery life, vortex at 250 hrs max setting and 2000 hrs lowest setting, vs aimpoint t1 at 50,000 hrs min and bushnell/primary arms micro dots at 1000 hrs mid setting and 3000 hrs lowest

Overall pretty impressed, some give and take as always with weight and battery life being primary downsides for me.  Adjustable focus and etched reticle being primary pluses.

PSA currently has this on sale at $199 -- everywhere else is ~$260 to $300 on it. 
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/vortex-spitfire-1x-prism-scope-with-drt-moa-reticle-spr-1301.html

(And if you're in the market for an AR upper, this complete set minus lower receiver and the optic is $500, so you're getting the optic for $100 OR upper and complete parts kit for $300 -- either way, you're getting an extra $100 in value over PSA's already discounted sale prices. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-16-stainless-mid-length-1-7-freedom-rifle-kit-with-vortex-spitfire-1x-prism-scope.html )

1x reticle:


Subtensions:


3x reticle:


Subtensions:


*And forgot to mention -- vortex optics have an unlimited lifetime warranty too: http://www.vortexoptics.com/content/vip_warranty

**Also, I don't know of any varying height mounts other than the one it comes with, which the height is optimized for an AR.

[CitizenPete]

Regarding CP's last post -- the 3x version it has rails on the optic to allow for a 1x optic mount...

The ACOG does not have rails on top. It has mounting holes for an expensive reflex mount, that only accepts a trijicon reflex.


A) I am using a Burris Fastfire as a red dot that will not fit on the expensive mount.
B) A reflex on the ACOG sits too high. A 45 deg offset should work better with a stock check weld set for the ACOG.


At least thats the idea.

[audax]

Thanks to keratoconus I can't use red dots, so nothing but glass with a diopter adjustment for me. I went with a Leupold Prismatic 1x14 in part because it looked like it could mount lower than the other 1x prism scopes. I'm waiting on a railed dust cover so I haven't used the scope yet, but I think I'm going to like it a lot. The glass is excellent with good field of view (83ft @ 100yds) and eye relief (3-5 inches). What I like best is the way the image completely fills the ocular so that the thin scope edges just seem to disappear. It reminds me very much of a Russian PK-AS, but with internal windage and elevation adjustments (1/2moa clicks) and a lifetime warranty.

It weighs 8.3oz without mount. Leupold says it has the thickest walls of any of their production scopes and is virtually indestructible. I don't know about that, but it does feel very solid.

Reticle choice is pretty poor by Leupold standards, only DCD (double circle dot) or circle plex. The circle plex has a 6moa center dot so I went with the DCD, which Vortex apparently likes as well (the Spitfire 1x reticle is a nearly exact copy).

The downsides are all in the illumination. Somewhat uncommon CR-1/3N battery. Poor battery life (15 hrs at max brightness and 250 hrs at minimum brightness). Eight levels of red-only illumination which don't get bright enough to use in full sun. While I like the ergonomics of the push button control, it seems uncomfortably easy to turn on inadvertently so the battery dies while the gun is stored. The illuminator is removable though, so in theory you could attach anything you want to the illumination port. I'll only use illumination infrequently and in low light so I can live with the limitations. I rather like that Leupold put all the money into the optics and not the doodads.

I believe Leupold is discontinuing this scope so there are some factory demo deals available at Optics Planet for as low as $399. With a coupon, that should bring the price down to a point that is not completely laughable in comparison to a Vortex or Burris.

I think this is an exceptionally fine piece of glass. Optically and mechanically I'm not sure we'll see its like again and certainly not at this price.

[RSR]

No doubt the ACOG and Leupold are better optics than the vortexes... 

I specifically posted the 1x b/c I find it to have a pretty unique set of features on the market -- wasn't aware of the leupold.

The 3x has some pretty steep competition and is actually a slightly higher pricepoint than the primary arms ones, though their 5.56 fixed mag offering w/ a similar reticle is 5x so quite a bit more mag there, do have a 2.5x with a more standard red dot reticle.  Primary arms being the primary competition on the fixed mag prism optics.

Also, just saw that primary arms is now offering a first focal plane 1-8x 7.62x39 and 5.56 scopes at $1,300...  Japanese built, but definitely makes the Bushnell 1-4x PCL scope that PSA and amazon have at $200 look like a bargain...  Both have 24mm objectives.  Have 2 of that bushnell scope and very impressed w/ it for the price as well...