Can you operate the slide stop with right thumb on CZ Compact?

[s0nspark]

My thumb is long enough to manipulate the slide stop lever without breaking my grip... The bigger challenge IMO is finding what works best when shooting left handed

[Skookum]

I use my right middle finger to operate the mag release on my 82 and 83s, because it is quicker and easier than using my right thumb, which requires the grip be rotated to allow my thumb to reach the release.  So I see no problem in you using your left thumb to release the slide stop on your Compact, especially as it is right there anyway.


I switched to VZ Frags on my compact, because the stock plastic grips are annoyingly slippery.  The VZ grips are not only grippier, they are a bit thinner, which makes it comfortable for my right thumb to ride the safety and easier to reach the slide stop.

[jameslovesjammie]

I have a CZ Compact and I find myself getting into the habit of operating the slide stop using my left hand after a magazine change. Seems the slide stop is just a little beyond reach of my right thumb. Is this a common problem?

I have no troubles, but I also wear 2xl gloves.

The slide stop for the SP01 and P01/P06 are extended farther to the rear than standard slide stops.

Standard slide stop:



Extended slide stop:

[TX_Southpaw]

My thumb is long enough to manipulate the slide stop lever without breaking my grip... The bigger challenge IMO is finding what works best when shooting left handed

This is what's commonly known as "my collection is missing an 85 B/85 Combat."   

[MeatAxe]

This thumb over thumb grip is just the latest fad grip technique. To me it doesn't make any sense to put your weak hand in position to interfere with the slide, slide stop, safety, mag release, etc. when you're shooting in a stress situation. Contrary to what the guy said, you actually have less leverage against recoil / muzzle flip than if the weak hand was placed lower on the grip, where it would also insure that the mag stays in the gun.

** Link removed per remote admin, 5/8/2015 wlc

I'll listen to Travis Healy, who actually has experience in combat, plus gives solid biomechanical reasons why the "latest fad" grip is so effective; than listen to you (what are your qualifications?) who uses some Big Army manual as justification for an ineffective grip that has been abandoned by virtually every action pistol competitor on the planet.

Weak hand lower on the gun gives more control over muzzle rise?  LOL
Cup and Saucer and Weaver grips?  LOLOLOL

You also might want to tell Frank Proctor, Ben Stoeger, Adam Tyc, Angus Hobdell, and a host of other USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA champions that they are doing it wrong.

http://youtu.be/tMzQIHN-LiI

Competitors and instructors argued just as vociferously in favor of the finger on the front of the trigger guard grip years ago. That's why we have squared off trigger guards with checkering on the front that serves no useful purpose, because NOBODY uses that grip anymore. The one above is just the new grip du jour. There are a couple of disturbing things in his video: the first view of his grip in rapid fire shows his weak hand fingers covering and invading the trigger guard. Then he says if he could he would hold the gun by the back of the slide, which could give beginners the impression that they should grip so high that they interfere with the slide (ouch!).

When the adrenalin is pumping, do you seriously want to put you weak hand / thumb right on top of the gun's slide and controls in a gun fight? Better hope you don't drop your magazine or lock your weapon open, or have your safety / decocker fighting your trigger finger.

The push / pull of a modified Weaver grip (somewhere between the "cup and saucer" and the Weaver) allows stress to work for you, without putting your weak hand in position to accidentally futz with the controls or drop a magazine.

Whatever your grip choice, practice makes permanent. I just wouldn't want to use a grip that puts you in a position to accidentally disable the gun in a fight.

[Alpha Sierra]

MeatAxe, you win the internet, arguing about the methods taught by a guy (Healy) who's been there and done that in combat both as a Marine and as a PMC.

You're not worth the time.

[Skookum]

Competitors and instructors argued just as vociferously in favor of the finger on the front of the trigger guard grip years ago. That's why we have squared off trigger guards with checkering on the front that serves no useful purpose, because NOBODY uses that grip anymore.

The existence of squared-off trigger guard fronts has nothing to do with gripping the pistol.  It is a result of US police departments specifying a pistol's ability to be used in barricade fire -- ie, with the flat trigger guard pressed against a surface behind which one has taken cover to steady the pistol for firing.

[s0nspark]

Competitors and instructors argued just as vociferously in favor of the finger on the front of the trigger guard grip years ago. That's why we have squared off trigger guards with checkering on the front that serves no useful purpose, because NOBODY uses that grip anymore. The one above is just the new grip du jour. There are a couple of disturbing things in his video: the first view of his grip in rapid fire shows his weak hand fingers covering and invading the trigger guard. Then he says if he could he would hold the gun by the back of the slide, which could give beginners the impression that they should grip so high that they interfere with the slide (ouch!).

When the adrenalin is pumping, do you seriously want to put you weak hand / thumb right on top of the gun's slide and controls in a gun fight? Better hope you don't drop your magazine or lock your weapon open, or have your safety / decocker fighting your trigger finger.

The push / pull of a modified Weaver grip (somewhere between the "cup and saucer" and the Weaver) allows stress to work for you, without putting your weak hand in position to accidentally futz with the controls or drop a magazine.

Whatever your grip choice, practice makes permanent. I just wouldn't want to use a grip that puts you in a position to accidentally disable the gun in a fight.

I have never had an issue with a thumbs forward grip causing issues or malfunctions... I just get better control of the gun.

I have medium sized hands with long fingers and can't figure out how my grip could cause the issues you describe aside from allowing my thumb to ride the slide stop lever which is easily avoided with practice.

If you legitimately experience those issues (as opposed to just arguing their possibility) then perhaps it comes down to details... your thumbs forward grip needs to be tweaked or maybe just practiced more or maybe you have a gun that does not suit your hands. I would say that choosing a demonstrably less effective grip should not be considered a solution... especially if this is just a theoretical problem you are wrestling with.

Now, granted, anything pertaining to physiology is subject to personal adaptation so the exact grip that works for one person may not work exactly for another but the core principles of a good grip (i.e. one that allows you to effectively control recoil by leveraging biomechanics and physics rather than brute strength) remain unchanged. And, again, let me stress the need to practice... especially dry fire with drawing from the holster... a  LOT. You will react under stress as you have trained, not as you've thought ;-)

Oh, and Jerry Miculek does still advocate using a finger at the front of the trigger guard under some circumstances, particularly with smaller guns... and he is not dogmatic about thumb placement - his stance is that thumbs can be leveraged to aid your grip with practice but aren't what really makes the grip. Good grip technique depends mainly on proper hand placement on the gun and (left hand) grip strength... and, as his results show, proof is in the recoil control, shot to shot recovery and pattern on target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s

[s0nspark]

My thumb is long enough to manipulate the slide stop lever without breaking my grip... The bigger challenge IMO is finding what works best when shooting left handed

This is what's commonly known as "my collection is missing an 85 B/85 Combat."   

I would agree... but I am after a technique that is not quite so gun dependent.

Shooting with my left as primary is a new thing for me - just something I am practicing to try and build my skillset. It sure does feel awkward, mainly for my right hand which is just not used to taking a supportive role. I honestly can't foresee using this in place of my normal technique but I figure it can't hurt to build a passing familiarity with it.
 

[Hurryin Hoosier]

I have never used the slide stop as a "slide release". I've always used the sling-shot method. Like many people (and many people more knowledgeable than I), I believe that using it as a slide release will lead to premature wear of the stop. 

[Skookum]

I've heard that sling shotting the slide is the only legitimate way to chamber a round, because the slide is closed from a fully retracted position, thus ensuring proper chambering.  However, upon reading the Army's 1911 manual, it's obvious that Saint John Moses meant for the thumb lever on the slide stop to be used, and his method is quicker.


What is your specific concern about wear, H²?

[jameslovesjammie]

I figure that if they didn't want you to use the slide stop as a slide release, they wouldn't put so much traction on it for your thumb to release...or make extended versions for their SD/Competition pistols.

[MeatAxe]

Competitors and instructors argued just as vociferously in favor of the finger on the front of the trigger guard grip years ago. That's why we have squared off trigger guards with checkering on the front that serves no useful purpose, because NOBODY uses that grip anymore. The one above is just the new grip du jour. There are a couple of disturbing things in his video: the first view of his grip in rapid fire shows his weak hand fingers covering and invading the trigger guard. Then he says if he could he would hold the gun by the back of the slide, which could give beginners the impression that they should grip so high that they interfere with the slide (ouch!).

When the adrenalin is pumping, do you seriously want to put you weak hand / thumb right on top of the gun's slide and controls in a gun fight? Better hope you don't drop your magazine or lock your weapon open, or have your safety / decocker fighting your trigger finger.

The push / pull of a modified Weaver grip (somewhere between the "cup and saucer" and the Weaver) allows stress to work for you, without putting your weak hand in position to accidentally futz with the controls or drop a magazine.

Whatever your grip choice, practice makes permanent. I just wouldn't want to use a grip that puts you in a position to accidentally disable the gun in a fight.

I have never had an issue with a thumbs forward grip causing issues or malfunctions... I just get better control of the gun.

I have medium sized hands with long fingers and can't figure out how my grip could cause the issues you describe aside from allowing my thumb to ride the slide stop lever which is easily avoided with practice.

If you legitimately experience those issues (as opposed to just arguing their possibility) then perhaps it comes down to details... your thumbs forward grip needs to be tweaked or maybe just practiced more or maybe you have a gun that does not suit your hands. I would say that choosing a demonstrably less effective grip should not be considered a solution... especially if this is just a theoretical problem you are wrestling with.

Now, granted, anything pertaining to physiology is subject to personal adaptation so the exact grip that works for one person may not work exactly for another but the core principles of a good grip (i.e. one that allows you to effectively control recoil by leveraging biomechanics and physics rather than brute strength) remain unchanged. And, again, let me stress the need to practice... especially dry fire with drawing from the holster... a  LOT. You will react under stress as you have trained, not as you've thought ;-)

Oh, and Jerry Miculek does still advocate using a finger at the front of the trigger guard under some circumstances, particularly with smaller guns... and he is not dogmatic about thumb placement - his stance is that thumbs can be leveraged to aid your grip with practice but aren't what really makes the grip. Good grip technique depends mainly on proper hand placement on the gun and (left hand) grip strength... and, as his results show, proof is in the recoil control, shot to shot recovery and pattern on target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s

The things to consider about Jerry Miculek are:

a. He's a self-taught freak of nature.

b. he's had access to millions of rounds of free ammo and virtually unlimited time to shoot and develop a shooting style that works for HIM (unlike the rest of us). He also uses a red dot sight, which is not all that practical for concealed carry. Who knows how light his competition trigger is? With a light trigger, he may have developed an effective bump firing technique in his pistols  to give them the "full auto" effect. Again, not really practical for a carry piece.

c. his targets don't shoot back -- if he screws up in a tournament or on the practice range, I doubt that anyone is going to put a bullet in him or stove his head in with a tire iron.

d. Murphy's Law rules the day.

I know a cop who often goes undercover (on drug buys and such). He used to use the "thumbs forward" grip -- until the time he had to arrest two bad guys with his concealed SIG. He pulled his gun on the perps but when he assumed the "thumbs forward" grip he was so pumped with adrenalin that he squeezed too hard and released his magazine, which fell harmlessly to the ground. Fortunately, he had one chambered and the thugs were not armed, so when they saw the mag fall, before they could gather their wits to jump him, he started waving the pistol back and forth between them both, asking them which one wanted to die and was able to get them to surrender. Had they been armed (or braver) they could have killed him themselves.

That's why I don't want to have my hand / fingers on top of the controls when I pull a gun under stress. When the !@## hits the fan and the adrenalin kicks in, control and Plan A go right out the window. If anything can go wrong, it probably will at the worst possible moment. Better to eliminate those problems before they occur and train accordingly.

[s0nspark]

The things to consider about Jerry Miculek are:

a. He's a self-taught freak of nature.

b. he's had access to millions of rounds of free ammo and virtually unlimited time to shoot and develop a shooting style that works for HIM (unlike the rest of us).

c. his targets don't shoot back.

d. Murphy's Law rules the day.

No arguments there! I referenced him and the video simply to highlight his focus on the importance of a high grip with the proper forward torque of the left hand for recoil control. What you do with your thumbs is personal  

I know a cop who often goes undercover (on drug buys and such). He used to use the "thumbs forward" grip -- until the time he had to arrest two bad guys with his concealed SIG. He pulled his gun on the perps but when he assumed the "thumbs forward" grip he was so pumped with adrenalin that he squeezed too hard and released his magazine, which fell harmlessly to the ground. Fortunately, he had one chambered and the thugs were not armed, so when they saw the mag fall, before they could gather their wits to jump him, he started waving the pistol back and forth between them both, asking them which one wanted to die and was able to get them to surrender. Had they been armed (or braver) they could have killed him themselves.

That's why I don't want to have my hand / fingers on top of the controls when I pull a gun under stress. When the !@## hits the fan and the adrenalin kicks in, control and Plan A go right out the window. If anything can go wrong, it probably will at the worst possible moment. Better to eliminate those problems before they occur and train accordingly.

I understand where you are coming from... and riding the controls is a dangerous practice... but one can have a solid, thumbs-forward grip without riding the controls. I would guess this might vary from person to person depending on gun and hand size, though, so some adaptability would be necessary.

As for squeezing the mag release unexpectedly? There has to be some distinctive interaction going on there... something particular to his grip that time (didn't get a proper grip under stress) and/or gun (extended mag release or subcompact pistol, maybe?). I just have a hard time accepting that as a universal problem. I could be wrong though.

[Skookum]

I know a cop who often goes undercover (on drug buys and such). He used to use the "thumbs forward" grip -- until the time he had to arrest two bad guys with his concealed SIG. He pulled his gun on the perps but when he assumed the "thumbs forward" grip he was so pumped with adrenalin that he squeezed too hard and released his magazine, which fell harmlessly to the ground.

Must be a SIG design flaw, or your friend has odd thumbs.  When I grip my CZs in a thumbs-forward manner, neither of my thumbs is anywhere near the mag release.