Author Topic: Left hand charging handle  (Read 14679 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dernt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Left hand charging handle
« on: October 03, 2014, 11:00:03 PM »
Has anyone used the guy on gunbroker that does the left hand charging handle conversion, or does anyone have a good source for this mod?

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2014, 02:00:42 AM »
I'm told that the only one you want is the pinned and welded handle, like the the stock bolt carrier handle, that only one manufacturer in the Czech Republic does. 

It's now illegal in the EU to sell bolt carriers to civilians and you need a special export/military license to acquire.  I'm looking into these via an importer, but probably won't be acquiring until next year. 

VZ58rifle.com on their Czech language site, still has these listed.

Reason why is that welds break, and even here in the US there have been incidences of lightning VZ58 bolt carriers (another provider, they do AKs also) that have handles on both sides, only the left is welded as they start from original bolt carrier, where the handles have detached and broke faces if happening on recoil rather than return to battery.  Here's a return to battery story: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?99537-VZ-58-bolt-carrier-(alternate)-replacment-question

Just fyi, the reason VZ58s have smooth left sides per original military configuration is that it was an original design requirement.  Their left sides were intended to be smooth so as to not tangle in web gear/kit while rifle was carried on a sling...  So for a CQB weapon on a single point sling (such as for law enforcement), left hand charging handles makes sense, but perhaps less so for a general purpose weapon that won't always be carried at the ready, perhaps less so.

Offline dernt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2014, 08:44:07 AM »
Are bolt carriers interchangeable without affecting headspace?  Seems like someone in the US could produce these the right way without having to import them from the Czech Republic? 

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19880
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2014, 10:45:04 PM »
NEIT Amrs in Canada used to do a double sided bolt carrier, but the original bolt carrier is made of VERY hard metal, and the addition is quite difficult. I think they might still be available through either NEIT or NEA up in Canada, and legal for import into the US...but I'm not 100%

Offline cciman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2014, 10:04:25 PM »
I can't see how a professionally welded piece of metal on the left side would be prone to coming off...


Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19880
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2014, 10:38:19 PM »
I am not a metallurgist, welder, gun smith or even a reliable car mechanic - just repeating what NEA told me when they offered these things a few years ago. If you can do it, go for it and let us know how it works, would ya? :)

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2014, 10:48:43 PM »
I am not a metallurgist, welder, gun smith or even a reliable car mechanic - just repeating what NEA told me when they offered these things a few years ago. If you can do it, go for it and let us know how it works, would ya? :)

To reiterate, I've heard the same thing -- the only one's worth buying are the drilled and pinned ones.  Looking at the original that handle might actually be cast in place (I figured it was pinned due to indent on top of handle nob but looking closer at mine, it could just as well be cast) , but I don't feel like dremeling one off just to inspect.  If you do, please update.

Offline Forced March

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2014, 01:01:50 AM »
I will open my mouth cause I AM a welder. 

I have seen those lightning carriers and they are SH*T, no offense to actual lightning which IS the sh*t.  I won't lie, I was nervous myself the first time I made my own charging handle(welded).  But it has worked very well since the day I did it.  Roughly 2500 rounds later, it's still there, and awesome. 

Could it break off?

Maybe.  Install it in your rifle, take it up five flights and drop it out the window onto pavement and it might break off.  But a better I idea just popped into my head.  A more accurate test of its durability would be to uninstall it, place it on my garage floor and hit it repeatably with a standard home improvement type hammer.  :)  IF I get enough requests for me to destroy my own carrier with a hammer I will video tape it and upload it to "the" You Tube for everyone to watch. 

It could be just the science that this conversation requires, what happens when modified carrier meets "hammer and concrete"?

Offline Forced March

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2014, 02:49:03 AM »
Also, and I am not trying to bust anyone's balls here, BUT if I can successfully weld a tab and it works great, why couldn't I weld on a charging handle with similar results???  Or for that matter, think of the world and how many wonderful things out there are welded together, your taking two similar metallurgical components and making them one. 

I'm not trying to say yay or nay, ANYTHING is subject to failure.  Mine's welded, I was apprehensive at first but now I think nothing of it, cause it works very well. 

Final thoughts, I wonder just how much external stress the carrier is under, my guess is, it's not.  Internal stress is an entirely different subject and hard to determine, I once dropped a disconnector a simple disconnector and I bleep you not, it exploded.  Not two or three, but four pieces, dropped about four feet onto a concrete floor and blew up.  My guess is that it had been cooled to quickly and had become brittle. 

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2014, 08:38:38 AM »
I'm sure metallurgically you could find a method to get both the carrier and handle to meld/weld together successfully.  What that would take I don't know. 

And I've been told by retailers that have tried them all and know far more than me is that the only ones they'd sell or consider buying/worth the money based upon past experiences are pinned and welded ones.  Personally, I have no experience w/ any of them, nor am I even remotely qualified to be a welder/metallurgist...

Ultimately, the whole piece of steel flying at my face at however many miles per hour the bolt carrier recoils to the rear at makes it not worth it to me to risk a welded only option.  I like my teeth and don't want to risk unknown quality manufacturing with relatively high margins of error/failure (per the not pinned and welded advisement from the experts)... YMMV. 

I actually believe I encouraged you to offer a reverse carrier at one point, but considering AKs and galils, etc, with charging handles on the right, I ultimately decided all things considered to leave it alone for my needs.  However, if you have created a system that you know that works, I'd absolutely prefer to see a US based business -- and forum member -- make that available over importing.  Keep us posted.

Offline Forced March

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2014, 06:14:03 PM »
RSR, is that a vote for "hammer and floor"?

LOL

Offline nickndfl

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2014, 09:14:22 PM »
Try shooting southpaw once in awhile and the urge to modify will dissipate.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2014, 09:27:37 PM »
Haha.  No -- not advocating you destroy your bolt carrier or at least not that you try to.  For me, a relatively standard manual of arms has me leaving the bolt carrier configuration as is across my VZs.  I think the only time I might reconsider is if I decided to do a home defense/CQB custom build rather than a general purpose carbine -- most of my rifles and bolt guns have right side charging handles, so I decided a more standard manual of arms is probably for the best. 

Best I can gather the problem is that the welds typically develop microfissures or I guess has them from the start which over time have caused the weld to fail.  Again, not an expert on welding so don't know if it's a material issues, a hardness issue, welding technique or lack thereof, etc, that's caused previous failures.  But probably not an issue that would be manifest immediately after building and then beating on it -- possible, but it strikes me more that weld weakness increases over time until just ultimately completely failing.

Offline cciman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2014, 01:59:27 PM »
I've had welds placed on my subframe and trailer, and I don't see how this can come off by typical use.  The reports are probably of guys who used a home garage welder, or just a poor weld- or just fake reports.
BTW the "Tab" is spot welded in place.
I think a nice Tig weld would hold this quite permanently. The question would be if the heat would distort it negatively.  If I decide to do this, I'll let you know (I would buy a spare bolt to do it on).

Tavors, Augs, Scars, HK's all have left side charging handles.  There are aftermarket conversions for AR and AK rifles too. The downside is having that handle poking you in the chest if you fall on it.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4668
Re: Left hand charging handle
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2014, 02:07:57 AM »
The FN FAL and G3 are the only latter half of 1900s (1950-1999) mainstream small arm systems that I can think of that had the left hand charging handle.  Any others?  (Stg44 had originally as well.)

The latest generation of rifles with most having hand charging handles, or at least ambi/switchable side charging handles, really seems to only have become a "must have" after the latest Iraq War and all the CQB fighting that American soldiers faced in that conflict.  Same can be said for the switch from DI (less reliable) to piston systems (more reliable).

Yes support hand charging handles are great if you're changing mags during the fight and get back into action ASAP, but not really if you're carrying your weapon around all.  They're also a detriment to transitions if you have any sling other than single point (and even then there's a good chance of handle to the crotch) and want to throw the weapon behind you to get to your pistol.   
Essentially, Iraq in my mind really shaped the operational mindset how our troops fight and the best setup for weapons and tactics.   There wasn't a lot of walking there.  Most operations were vehicle mounted and most high speed operators spend a few hours in danger zone before being back to the relative safety of controlled access base with little to no likelihood of needing to defend themselves there.  Basically, operations there more resembled a law enforcement type of operation where we set the time, place, and number of conflicts and the only time our soldiers didn't was when they were in armored vehicles traveling to the set time and place...  I think this can also be seen with the current obsession with SBRs (even M4 carbine length barrels) in 5.56 despite the very real and proven disadvantages of 5.56 bullet performance at lower velocities.
Point being, if you're foot mounted light infantry carrying a massive ruck or at a small forward operating base, always at potential danger, always carrying weapon and in a state of semi-readiness due to constant threat (but not mounted to shoulder as you make a forced entry on your own timeline), not needing to quickly get in and out of vehicles (the primary why behind the switch by Army service-wide to M4s), etc, you have very different weapon requirements and might be willing to make different compromises insofar as what's important to you.
Frankly, there was a lot that tried to be ported from lessons learned and ways of fighting in Iraq by soldiers and leadership into Afghanistan in 2008 that didn't work...  Point being, every mission/specific use would have a different definition of optimal.  So you try to choose which is best across your most likely scenarios and minimize negative attributes of those "improvements" in the less likely scenarios...

To the point, for high speed type offensive operator weapon configuration (or even for 3 gun and the like), I think the left side charging handles make sense.  For a civilian that just wants a rifle to carry around on a sling while working the farm or walking the woods, it probably doesn't. 
For me, the deciding factor was to have, as much as possible, the same manual of arms for charging the weapon across all systems.  I can't afford to switch/configure all my rifles (and if you're going to be shooting family/friends or even battlefield pickups, conceptually you'd want theirs to be the same as well), so I decided to leave as is as the standardized manual of arms should probably be as quickly as being confused about which side the bolt handle is on under stress.  My thought process.  YMMV.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 02:12:29 AM by RSR »