Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!

[Independent George]

Damascus told me just yesterday they have no ETA on the Scorpion yet. They know they're coming but don't know when. I told them to put me in line for one

I assumed it would be sometime after the SHOT show.

[RSR]

This thread on the VZ58 boards might be interesting to you all:
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63471.0

Mrgunsngear facebook post of the initial review video in the above thread  had a dealer advertising pre-order for $500 down and $995 or something like that total. 

I try not to pay MSRP.

I will say, and mentioned in the above thread, that I hate the grip angle. It's outdated for elbows out rather than down shooting. Elbows out exposes vitals and put military/le at greater risk. 

A little more pronounced/longer/larger charging handle would be good and wish the mags had steel lips like Lancers for ARs but otherwise no major complaints. 

Looks like a great truck gun.
 

[RSR]

ATF changed their mind about the brace on a Shotgun, not on a pistol. I don't see them changing their minds soon.

That particular instance also involved a forward grip on the shotgun, which a SBS can't have.  I you're absolutely right about the brace on a pistol.

The guy already had an "any other weapon" NFA class weapon, for which a foregrip is allowed.  The ATF said mounting the Sig brace to one's shoulder, not to the weapon, is what effectively changed the class from an "any other weapon" to "short barrel shotgun."  Further discussion follows.

Here's the letter in question: http://www.shootingsportsretailer.com/2014/11/19/could-this-mean-the-end-of-the-sig-brace/

I read this as a gamechanger:

However, should an individual utilize the SigTac SB15 pistol staabilizing brace on the submitted sample as a shoulder stock to fire the weapon from the shoulder, this firearm would be classified as a "short-barreled shotgun" as defined in the NFA, 26 U.S.C. SS 5845(a)(1) because the brace has then been made or remade, designed or redesigned form its originally intended purpose.

The letter is now stating that using the Sig Brace as a stock is now in fact for all intents converting the firearm into a separate category NFA firearm per the ATF's view. Whether it's a shotgun or a pistol AR really shouldn't matter in how the ATF interprets the use of this accessory...
To reiterate, it's not the presence of the brace on the weapon, it's the mounting of the brace to the shoulder that resulted it in changing categories. 

My summation of the letter from what can be seen:
What it looks like in this case was that the guy had a legal Any Other Weapon, "AOW." He then asked guidance on adding the Sig Brace. The shotgun would remain an AOW with the Sig Brace installed and used as designed. But use the sig brace as a "stock" (mounting to the shoulder) on the AOW and the AOW in question would then become a Short Barrel Shotgun, "SBS", and you would be in violation of the NFA unless you had in fact registered as a SBS rather than an AOW. So again, just mounting the brace to the shoulder is in effect "converting" your weapon.
Now to what degree the $5 AOW stamp vs the $200 SBS NFA tax stamps affected is unknown... But what is known is that just the act of a mounting a weapon equipped to one's shoulder with a stabilizing brace now at least converts it to a different weapon classification in this particular case per the ATF's most recent ruling. And if previous rulings hold -- if you've ever mounted the Sig Brace to your shoulder, the weapon will forever need to maintain an SBS registration, even if you remove the Sig Brace... Not doing so, or not having a SBS registration prior to mounting to your shoulder, means your committing a felony that the ATF could document, prosecute, and result in you forever losing your ability to order firearms. (Or if you document those actions for them through phone pics or videos, or anything touched by the NSA, all they'd have to do is prosecute.)

AND, IMO this is major, it opens anyone with a sig brace on their weapon to possible charges of "intent to manufacture an illegal weapon" should the ATF decide to make your life miserable.  So if you have a shotgun "pistol" and also own a sig brace you're playing with fire.  Just like if you own an AR and M16 full auto FCG components...

And that's before we even start to worry about mission creep, etc...

More background on ATF shotgun classification:

Previously, shotguns could have barrels of less than 18" in length if they never had a buttstock attached -- b/c only if a shotgun is sold with a buttstock attached does the ATF define it as a "shotgun." Like how you register AR receivers as a pistol but once converted to or registered as a rifle you can't convert back to a pistol w/o filing paperwork with the ATF...
Here's more on the previous shotgun rulings: http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
EDIT: Cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tsRTVeYUL-gJ:shockwavetechnologies.com/site/%3Fpage_id%3D88+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I get a lot of questions from customers about the ?new? ATF ruling regarding pistol-grip-only (PGO) firearms with 14? barrels that aren?t considered NFA items.

Well, first off, let me say, it?s not a new ruling. It?s the same position that ATF has always taken regarding PGO firearms that fire a fixed shotgun shell that have NEVER had a buttstock attached to them?they?re NOT shotguns! They?re simply firearms. As such, they don?t necessarily need to have 18?+ barrels on them to remain out of the purview of the NFA.

You see, the very definition of a ?shotgun? requires that it be ?designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder?? Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the PGO firearms in question, they can?t be fired from the shoulder and are therefore not shotguns. Hence, with a 14? barrel, they can?t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren?t shotguns to begin with. Read the full definition of a shotgun here. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc26.wais&start=20391331&SIZE=9737&TYPE=TEXT

PGO firearms that remain longer than 26? in overall length also can?t be defined as AOWs. That?s because the term ?any other weapon? (AOW) means ?any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person?? And ATF maintains that to be concealed, the firearm needs to be shorter than 26?. Read the full definition of an AOW here. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc26.wais&start=20391331&SIZE=9737&TYPE=TEXT

More on the subject is available in these two letters to Len Savage?the guy who will be making a lot of these non-NFA firearms in the coming months and years:

July 20, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf
October 27, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf
Page 1 of third letter  http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/RedactedPg1.jpg
Page 2 of third letter http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/redactedPg2.jpg
All that said, I?m not a firearms attorney. And I?m not offering legal advice here. I am simply relating things the way I understand them. Be sure you check with all the appropriate agencies.

Now, a pistol-grip-only Mossberg 500 with a 14? barrel and the Raptor Grip installed measures 26.5? in overall length (measured parallel to the bore).

?Marty

So putting the sig brace on a less than 18" barrel shotgun with no buttstock but an overall length of at least 26" -- generally defined as a "firearm" per ATF -- is okay. But mount that Sig brace quipped firearm to you shoulder then it becomes a "shotgun" (or at least apparently per this ruling/letter).

And Black Aces (the guy the letter is too) is doing a lot of innovative shotgun stuff and likely interfaces with the ATF quite frequently on those mods, so it doesn't appear to be some yahoo just wanting to pull the fire alarm: http://www.blackacestactical.com/

[RSR]

Here's the article inline:

In a letter reportedly written to a small home defense shotgun maker, the nation?s top gun control regulator says shouldering a Sig Sauer-made SB15 pistol stabilizing brace could change a firearm?s classification rendering it subject to bureaucratic and expensive National Firearms Act rules.

The Nov. 14 letter was written in response to Black Aces Tactical owner Eric Lemoine?s submission of a short-barreled shotgun design that incorporated the SB15 brace. The brace is intended to allow a shooter to fire an AR-style pistol with one hand using a Velcro strap to attach it to the arm.

The ATF letter has many AR pistol owners concerned as it could be seen as a blanket determination on illegal use of a Sig Brace, subjecting violators to years in prison and a permanent ban on firearms ownership.

?The submitted weapon, as described and depicted above ? is not a ?firearm? as defined by the NFA provided the SicTac SB15 pistol stabilizing brace is used as originally designed and not used as a shoulder stock,? wrote Acting Chief of the BATF?s Firearms Technology Branch Max Kingery. ?However, should an individual utilize the SigTac SB15 pistol stabilizing brace on the submitted sample as a shoulder stock to fire the weapon from the shoulder, this firearm would then be classified as a ?short-barreled shotgun.? ?

Black Ace Tactical owner Lemoine told Shooting Sports Retailer the ATF letter applies solely to the shotgun design submitted to the Firearms Technology Branch and doesn?t apply to uses with AR pistols.
[...]
In March, the agency made what was arguably a groundbreaking ruling on the use of the brace, saying shouldering an AR pistol with an SB15 would not change it to a short-barreled rifle that requires separate registration and a tax stamp.

?Accessories such as the Sig Stability Brace have not been classified by [ATF] as shoulder stocks and, therefore, using the brace improperly does not constitute a design change,? ATF wrote. ?We do not classify weapons based on how an individual uses the weapon.?

Since that March letter, the market for AR pistols has exploded, with manufacturers, retailers and shooters seeing a new opportunity to engage with shorter barreled AR-style pistols fitted with a Sig Brace without having to deal with the headache of SBR registration.

Still the ATF?s latest letter to Black Aces Tactical may be a shot across the bow at pistol makers and shooters who use the brace as a makeshift stock.

?The BATFE is in the process of reversing its position on shouldering arm braces due to a change in leadership. It might not be this moment, but it?ll be soon,? a worried shooter said on an Internet forum post about the ATF letter. ?Investing a ton of money in weapons that are only usable with ?arm braces? may not be a wise plan for the future.?

Source: http://www.shootingsportsretailer.com/2014/11/19/could-this-mean-the-end-of-the-sig-brace/

[RSR]

And all of this is why you might want to take a look at alternatives like Thorsden's setups:

Just came across this -- looks like a great option as well:





Image source and good read: http://www.recoilweb.com/friday-night-gun-porn-compliant-ar-option-and-an-ar-pistol-43401.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHyIoxD8Y1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-JYbgigVw

Stock tube cover -- $26.99 to $36.99 (more expensive having quick detach sling connects)
Saddle adapter kit -- $18.99
Saddle -- $26.49

Should ~$80-$100 delivered.  That is cheaper than the Sig Brace...

http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/AR-PISTOL.htm

[Armor Snail]

Guy is in violation ^^^

Having a vfg on that pistol is now a AOW.  I can't believe they would publish that.

[RSR]

Guy is in violation ^^^

Having a vfg on that pistol is now a AOW.  I can't believe they would publish that.

Not necessarily, though personally I'd want an ATF ruling in hand for my particular configuration rather than assuming.  From the article:

If you are thinking about building an AR Pistol, you first need to start with a lower that was registered to you by your FFL as ?other?. You cannot take an AR-15 that started life as a rifle and turn it into a pistol, but you can take an AR-15 lower that was registered as OTHER, build a pistol, convert it to a rifle later, then back to a pistol. Clear as mud? If you?re doubtful at all consult a legal expert in your state. We live in a time where even legislators and LEOs can be confused by poorly worded, ambiguous, sometimes contradictory laws. Make sure you know what?s legal and what?s not.

It is also my understanding that if the total length of the firearm is over 26?, then you are permitted to add a vertical grip without the need for an NFA stamp because it is not an AOW. Again, check that one out for yourself.

Here's an ATF letter regarding a 26 1/4" Tommy gun that backs up that guys position: http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

In your letter, you state that your company's [...] pistol has an overall length of 26.3 inches and a barrel length of 10 1/2 inches.  The addition of a vertical fore grip to [the firearm in question] would result in this firearm no longer qualifying as a "handgun" or a "pistol" as explained above; however, it would not be subject to NFA/AOW classification provided its overall length is at least 26" and it is not actually concealed on the person.

NFA's definition of a SBR:
"Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches."
--This is why you have to start w/ pistol lowers in the AR building of these for instance.
--And overall length federally for the ATF is with the stock fully extended, at its maximum length. 

So what the letter and ruling is saying is that if the barrel length is less than 16" and the overall length is less than 26" then it is an SBR.  If barrel length is less than 16" and overall length is more than 26" then it is a "firearm" not falling under NFA regulation.  If you conceal that pistol w/ foregrip though, then you're for all intents "converting" it to an SBR and in violation of the NFA... 
And "pistols" and/or generic/limbo "firerarms" still can't have a stock, else they become "rifles."  And rifles must have a 16+" barrel or be registered as SBRs.

Here's the ATF definition of a firearm:

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.?

And non-NFA weapons generally fall into 5 classes:
1. Rifle, has a buttstock, needs a minimum 16" barrel length, needs a minimum overall length of at least 26", and less than 0.6" bore diameter.
2. Shotgun, has a buttstock originally installed, needs a minimum of 18" barrel length, needs a minimum of 26" overall length in its firing configuration, and needs a bore diameter of less than 1".
3. Pistol, no stock, to be fired with one hand, barrel less than 16", overall length of less than 26", and no vertical foregrips.
4. Firearm -- this is the limbo category most often forgotten/ignored -- no stock, barrel less than 16" (pistol/rifle) or 18" (shotgun), and overall length greater than 26" -- shotguns not falling into legal definitions w/o every having stocks attached and pistols with vfgs and similar prohibitions for pistols definition legally defined
5. Pyrotechnic flare guns and the like with bores over 1" but having low enough muzzle velocity to not be NFA.

EDIT: Here's another ATF letter on 26"+ OAL and VFG -- this is probably the one you want to have on your person if modding the weapon for a VFG and taking to public ranges: http://johnpierceesq.com/?p=602

[RSR]

Since NFA is boring, here are some videos of the EVO I posted in the VZ58 thread:

More evo vids:

http://youtu.be/x2AOIkSsj9k

http://youtu.be/Y90lvB3mzEI

http://youtu.be/4ByigNHoNeg

http://youtu.be/zMs1CPZvP9w

http://youtu.be/bU9TOzTPAj4

http://youtu.be/C9lpGD2hvnk

http://youtu.be/Y-gjOoufr_4

Suppressed subsonic:
http://youtu.be/8CR_5ffAsMM

Suppressed supersonic ammo:
http://youtu.be/1jfKNBOGet8

[armoredman]

Well thought out and detailed explanation, thank you. However, I still am hopfeul that AFTE will stand by the definition that made the SiG Brace so popular today...especially since i want to get one soon!

[gdawgs56]

However, I still am hopfeul that AFTE will stand by the definition that made the SiG Brace so popular today...especially since i want to get one soon!

Me too!!

[RSR]

However, I still am hopfeul that AFTE will stand by the definition that made the SiG Brace so popular today...especially since i want to get one soon!

+1

[jwc007]

Well thought out and detailed explanation, thank you. However, I still am hopfeul that AFTE will stand by the definition that made the SiG Brace so popular today...especially since i want to get one soon!

+2 ! 

[mikec]

I doubt that the 1000 preorders are "gone", even if already spoken for. 

When those guns arrive, those who have cash will buy them, some to make a quick turn over profit on Gunbroker, and rest of buyers won't have cash or credit after the holidays, and will drop off.

More interesting, what accessories will CZ-USA import with the gun or make available on the web store? 

Ceska Zbrojovka web store shows things like plastic clips for joining mags together, vertical foregrips, variety of Meopta optics, etc.. 

Here is a blog of one Czech who recently purchased one:  http://serzovo.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/cz-scorpion-evo3-s1/
In case you don't know how to read Czech, he complains that it took multiple months and many complaints to Ceska Zbrojovka to receive the gun after he paid for it (hopefully that means that all production is heading to USA, hehe).   His firearm came in a Styrofoam packaging instead of a fitted plastic case that was initially used.  Gun is apparently much easier to disassemble than the first Gen, or so he was told.  He found that the standard sights interfere with his Eotech unit and will have to be replaced.   It came with 2 twenty round mags, mag pouches designed for these mags, a 3 point sling, unlabeled BoreSnake, etc.   Since Czech Republic does not have SBR restrictions, his gun came with the original stock.

I think that the original EVO stock will be better functionally, and also looks much better (belongs on the gun), than some Sig brace that uses Velcro.  Just like shooting a real full auto firearm versus bumpfire or SlideFire pretenders.   SBR paperwork can be easily completed in an hour, including getting fingerprinted, if your local LEO is signing Form 4s.   The main problem will be the very long waiting time. 

I went through the same thing when DSArms imported Steyr TMP pistols.   DSArms would sell you the original stock once ATF approved your SBR application.   Now some outfit is selling exactly the same thing in the Shotgun News, no questions asked.  But potential penalties are severe, so it would be quite foolish not to go through legal hoops.   

Anybody knows what CZ-USA will be selling original stocks for? 

[armoredman]

I mentioned that to CZ-USA some time ago, but no idea if original stocks will be imported for SBR. I might be tempted to do it myself in the future. I know the one accessory i am certain will be offered willl be the adapter tube to fit the SiG Brace, but other than magazines, i really don't know what it is that will be offered.
be nice if it comes with a mag pouch, that would be kinda neat, too, but 30 round magazines would be a double plus.

[mikec]

"The Scorpion EVO submachine gun will directly challenge the aging Mp-5s, and I think will easily unseat them."

Doubt it.  If you own or have shot subguns like HK MP-5, HK UMP, Sterling, UZI, Swedish K, etc. you quickly realize that each has its very unique personality, pluses and minuses (and easily the worst of them, IMO, is the most "modern" design, HK UMP; it looks and handles like an ungainly and oversized slab of plastic; MP-5 is much more fun to shoot).   Hopefully EVO won't be in that category, but it has to prove itself.   

And MP-5 is a subgun, with transferables available to civilians who qualify and can afford them, while EVO is a semi, and will always stay a semi, so a world of difference.

Here are some interesting comments from the Czech blog I listed yesterday:

11.6.2012 (02:35)   

Kouk?m sam? pozitiva. Nezmi?uje? ale pr?serovou rozborku. J? m?l mo?nost srovn?n? s jin?mi podobn?mi kousky a m?j pohled je trochu jin?.
 

   Ser?a napsal:   
 
 11.6.2012 (09:58)   
 
Rozborku zmi?uju, z m?ho pohledu je v?c ne? v pohod??.ale jestli jsi m?l kousek z prvn? s?rie, tak ta pr? ?la ztuha?


   Vl??a napsal:   
 
 11.6.2012 (21:18)   
 
To nemysl?m. Rozborka je p?i sta?en?m z?v?ru a sta?? jen lehce zavadit o p?ku a pokud tam zrovna n?co lov?? a m?? tam prsty, tak je to rovnou na n?v?t?vu nemocnice. Dokonce u? p?r ?raz? bylo. St?elecky se mi Evo libilo, kvalitou v?roby je to p???ern? a nedota?en?. Vedle sebe jsme m?li UMP, MP5 a Evo, tak?e jsme mohli srovn?vat.


Two points are made here - if the bolt is cocked back on the last shot, or manually, it is apparently way TOO EASY to trigger the release lever.  There have been several injuries, when people were sticking their fingers into the receiver to fish something out, like jammed cartridge.   The commentator also said that as far as shooting EVO he liked the gun, but quality of production was "terrible and unfinished".   They had UMP, MP5 and EVO to compare.

These comments were made in 2012.

CZ BREN rifles have apparently had some design and performance issues, with complaints from the Czech Army (and Czech taxpayers, since they are far more expensive than VZ-58), so lets hope that CZ has worked out all the bugs out of EVO, and it has no long term issues, like parts breaking.   

I will certainly buy one, but time will tell.