Author Topic: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!  (Read 20221 times)

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Offline DanielBoone

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2015, 05:53:47 PM »
Anyone know a good site on Czech military units during the Cold War?  RSR - do you know when changes in front sight and trigger guards took place or were they all in use at the same time (i.e. - both produced at the same time - obviously even if one was produced early they could still be in use at the same time....)

Off to look for chem suits ;)

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2015, 07:26:27 PM »
This is supposedly illustrated: http://www.amazon.com/Uniforms-Forces-Eastern-European-Countries/dp/B0013PSSKK

Some written descriptions: https://books.google.com/books?id=SGIwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=military+uniforms+in+europe+1900+-+2000+czechoslovakia&source=bl&ots=2uy655L9ML&sig=sApK9Ipoh1GtU-Pi_1eHEtgESCA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TMSxVOClOZKzyAScu4LgBQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=military%20uniforms%20in%20europe%201900%20-%202000%20czechoslovakia&f=false

Uniforms Illustrated might have a Cold War book too...  Worth searching.

This book has a lot of pics/illustrations of the VZ58 as well as some soldier kit/outfitting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CZECH-ARMY-BOOK-ON-Vz58-RIFLE-/260872279525
It's in Czech but the last 1/3rd or so is all pics.  And it's a CZUB authorized publication.

Best I can tell there were two generations of rifles.  The first has the sight block w/ no lightening cuts and open trigger guard and  rounded mag release.  The 2nd has front sight blocks with lightening cuts, protected mag release trigger guard and scalloped mag release.  More info here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63116.0
But changes look to be 2 fold -- 1) would be improvements and lightening and 2) is faster/more automated manufacturing.  Don't know what if any changes have been made to parts manufacture now that CSA is making some new parts as well...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 07:31:41 PM by RSR »

Offline DanielBoone

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2015, 09:34:10 PM »
Pictures are excellent in that link!  Exactly the type of thing I am curious about...  I may take a gander at that book.  Just need to find a translator...

Appreciate the post, sir!

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2015, 09:59:30 PM »
Czech Salamander uniform for sale on gunbroker...  Pricey at $450 but cool nonetheless:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=462025739#PIC

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2015, 08:59:00 AM »
So... Do Czechpoint VZ's no longer have Czech made CHF barrels???

Offline Enthusiasm

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2015, 10:23:41 AM »
These did, the Liberty line of rifles does not they have German barrels

Offline DanielBoone

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2015, 01:40:07 PM »
The 7.62 mil version I bought last fall had a walther barrell that met the 16 inch requirement.  Also had a threaded muzzle...  I guess this round has some of the last surplus barrels they have in stock....

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2015, 02:26:48 PM »
Latest are German Lothar Walther barrels.  They are button rifled, so not cold hammer forged.
http://youtu.be/J16nVcXP_eA

About the new Czechpoint barrel maker:
Quote
Rifle Barrel Blanks
The production of barrel blanks at Lothar Walther is accomplished in state of the art facilities. Our rifle barrels are produced using button rifling. We were the first to use this method and it has been in use since 1925. Our materials are specifically engineered to be used in our process. Our Normal Steel, what every one calls "Chrome-Moly" is a special alloy which is very fine grained. It will perform in all situations and will generate phenomenal accuracy. Our Stainless Steel is of a very special type which will give longer barrel life and can be used in all contours. It far exceeds the capabilities of 416R. We manufacture calibers which range from 17 caliber to 600 caliber. Most calibers are stocked in both normal steel and our stainless steel. The charts below give our standard stock barrel blanks. Even with this large selection, there are still many types of barrels which are not shown. There are straight octagon barrels in some calibers. Black powder barrels are available. If you do not see what you are looking for, give us a call, we may have something special hidden away just for you.
http://www.lothar-walther.com/359.php

And here's the CHF process -- cheapest form of production at high volumes, most expensive at low volumes...:
http://youtu.be/aCMzyNHkjpk

http://youtu.be/8pzL5h2cl80

A good read on barrel types if interested: http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm

Worth noting that while these 16" barrels are a great change from the NFA restricted 15" barrels (especially when considering that the permanent spot welding of muzzle devices may temper the 15" CHF barrels thereby negating CHF's strength advantage at the critical muzzle location), the CSA VZ58's premium price point doesn't necessarily lineup with their manufacturing decisions...  So essentially the difference between CSA and Czechpoint barrels is now just chrome lining (Green Mountain barrels are button rifled as well)...  And the two mag 922r compliance parts remains an abomination and needless risk to convey to their customers...  Put in a CNC Warrior trigger (not that glass filled nylon bs) and a US Grip or Muzzle Device, and a CNC Warrior piston.  And call it done.

And fwiw, CHF really only matters for full auto rifles when the barrel will be getting really hot regularly.  CHF results in a slightly more dense barrel, absorbing more heat per same width/diameter/volume of material so it helps to avoid cookoffs of in chamber rounds, a problem for ARs in particular...  [note: mass/weight does/will change -- a CHF should be heavier per unit of volume than a non-CHF barrel.]  The denser material in a CHF barrel also hardens both the lands and grooves of the barrel, which is also especially important under high heat full auto fire as it results in less material removed with each shot...  And the denser material, conceptually at least, should result in less width/diameter being removed with each shot, though probably an equivalent amount of molecules removed w/ each shot.

And here's a great read on why nitriding is superior to chrome: http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186658
Quote
I agree with Mr Fuller.

Nitrided barrels are where it is at.

The barrels can be cut or button rifled to the correct twist and diameter, and then the metal gets case hardened, and nitrogen infused.

It results in a exceedingly strong barrel. It resists corrosion, doenst change internal diameter, withstands higher temperatures, and lowers the coefficient of friction against the bullet.

With all the new techniques in rifling, a radial land/groove, nitrided, faster twist AK barrel would be the cream of the crop.


Following on with what jim stated:

The differences in nitriding and chrome lining are vast. When a east block AK barrel is hammer forged, it does result in a more uniform grain structure. However, the bore is oversized in the CHF process, because when the chrome lining is applied, its builds onto the surface. (somewhere between .2-.6mm thick)

Also, when something is chromed, its a electro plating process. It never applies itself uniformly inside the bore. It deposits itself all over, and there will be high and low spots of more chrome/less chrome inside the bore. These hills/valleys are minor, but it is a factor.
ak barrels for example, are hard chromed for extreme wear situations. They're applied quite thick. This thicker application ends up amplifying surface defects even further, which requires additional finishing to try and smooth out. When machining these barrels shorter (like jim stated) the chrome lining has a tendency to chip.

But aside from that, it was a excellent idea to improve barrel life and corrosion resistance 50 years ago.

However, now a barrel can be cut or buttoned, with the exact internal bore diameter, and land-groove width. Then it can be nitrided, and the dimensions do not change. The land/groove width stays uniform from throat to muzzle, and the bore diameter doesnt change. The barrel is case hardened down, and nitrogen is rapidly absorbed and retained within the case layer. Nitrogen inhibits corrosion. This case layer is part of the steel, so when machined or super heated (full auto), it doesnt separate from the barrel, because IT IS the barrel.

Nitriding
doesnt "crack" under extreme heat
doesnt chip or flake
doesnt allow separation due to corrosion (oxidation under chrome, will lift the chrome off)
doesnt change any dimensions
Increases rockwell hardness
Drastically increases oxidation resistance
lowers friction inside the bore.

Whats not to like? Its a huge innovation to the firearms world.

Granted, its not "original" to the weapons platform, but its sure as !@## infinitely better, and much cheaper. I'll take performance over aesthetics anyday.
*Also, nitriding is cheaper and doesn't have all the environmental/pollution concerns as chrome either -- and on some of the thinner US "chrome" barrels, when nitrided the nitriding displaces the chrome in entirety.

Quote
^A-Plus. I could not have stated it better.^

Cut rifling is the most accurate process and provides the fine detail for corners, fillets, and rounds. The finished land and groove surfaces are the same density as the barrel material. Now; it is a slow process.

Button rifling is quick and fairly accurate. It is a burnishing operation moreso than a broaching operation and leaves a more dense "skin" for the lands and grooves. Now; it is hard to keep fine details as exacting corners, fillets, and rounds as the finished rifling is dependent on the plastic flow of steel.

Cold hammer-forging should produce lands and grooves that approach button rifling in regards to accuracy. Again; it is dependent on the plastic flow of metal. The advantage is the more dense "skin" at the lands, grooves, and chamber as well as the more dense "skin" on the exterior of the barrel. The parent metal is also a bit more dense as well.

Nitriding or Meloniting - whichever term you choose for this process is a great leap forward. The only requirement is that the steel must be of an alloy and minimum carbon content that responds to this treatment. It is essentially a low-temperature (1,100 Fahrenheit) case-hardening process that does not require a quench.

This process was perfected many decades ago but is fairly recent with its widespread application to barrels. I remember when we had to select a steel alloy that was "nitridable" for certain parts and had to use certain mill alloys that were formulated to respond.

I am impressed with its performance. The only caveat I see is that a barrel must have journals finished to size before one begins assembly as the skin is more than "file hard" and a few 0.001"s deep. It is certainly less "sticky" and interference-fit parts are easier to press on, and easier to clock.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 07:11:59 PM by RSR »

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2015, 04:10:37 PM »
Thanks guys - so real factory CHF barrels for the VZ 58 in the hands of us Americans are a thing of the past on 'new guns'.  I guess it makes our original ones a bit more collectable...

Offline RSR

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2015, 05:38:02 AM »
This is supposedly illustrated: http://www.amazon.com/Uniforms-Forces-Eastern-European-Countries/dp/B0013PSSKK

Some written descriptions: https://books.google.com/books?id=SGIwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=military+uniforms+in+europe+1900+-+2000+czechoslovakia&source=bl&ots=2uy655L9ML&sig=sApK9Ipoh1GtU-Pi_1eHEtgESCA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TMSxVOClOZKzyAScu4LgBQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=military%20uniforms%20in%20europe%201900%20-%202000%20czechoslovakia&f=false

Uniforms Illustrated might have a Cold War book too...  Worth searching.

This book has a lot of pics/illustrations of the VZ58 as well as some soldier kit/outfitting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CZECH-ARMY-BOOK-ON-Vz58-RIFLE-/260872279525
It's in Czech but the last 1/3rd or so is all pics.  And it's a CZUB authorized publication.

Best I can tell there were two generations of rifles.  The first has the sight block w/ no lightening cuts and open trigger guard and  rounded mag release.  The 2nd has front sight blocks with lightening cuts, protected mag release trigger guard and scalloped mag release.  More info here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63116.0
But changes look to be 2 fold -- 1) would be improvements and lightening and 2) is faster/more automated manufacturing.  Don't know what if any changes have been made to parts manufacture now that CSA is making some new parts as well...

Sportsmans guide has M60 and M85 field jackets in stock right now as well as some other interesting Czech surplus: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/productlist?k=czech 

Free shipping through the end of the day today (just google the free shipping code on retailmenot or slickguns or elsewhere).

Offline CZDad

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2015, 06:03:09 AM »
Pretty easy to find Czech M60 Packs.  I picked this one up for $30 shipped w/Leather 'Y' Harness.



Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2015, 08:24:51 AM »
Pretty easy to find Czech M60 Packs.  I picked this one up for $30 shipped w/Leather 'Y' Harness.


While I love to collect militaria, and believe me I have invested the dollar equivalent of a small used car in some complete set ups, IMO the moldy oldy field packs, alice packs, and field equipment should be relegated to the museum for the most part.  Since the USMC changed to the new packs over a year ago the previous Marpat full size packs and assault packs have dropped in price considerably as GOV liquidation has been auctioning them off by the pallet loads.  Add a seal waterproof liner to a USMC pack or assault pack and you will never have the option for complaint, rest assured.  Example: http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=9070948&tid=GLSPPT3545&cm_mmc=Email-_-ia13518%2Cia13519%2Cia21395-_-2015-02-12-_-13519_609&utm_campaign=gl%20-%20ia13518_%20ia13519%20_%20ia21395.html&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua  Someone will buy these and dole them out for sale.

One other note:  I have a box full of Czech flash lights.  Most of them are ear marked to go with optic cables for the VZ59 (thats a 9), however there are extra some without without the optic cable connection.  These are a bit primitive by todays LED standards and containing 2 D cells doesn't make them the lightest chicken in the coop, however these "My Day" lights offer interesting capabilities including signaling and IR.  They can attach to your Czech field jacket.  If anyone is interested in one to go with their VZ58 collection PM me.  I posted about these a while back here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=65242.msg441123#msg441123
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 01:12:01 PM by CitizenPete »
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline CZDad

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2015, 09:08:00 PM »
Someone was asking about Elite Czech Military Units, the only one I can think of is the 601. skss.

Offline RSR

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« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:37:24 PM by RSR »

Offline taceto

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Re: Czechpoint VZ58 Builds?!?!
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2015, 09:14:45 PM »
I'm betting that one ATF letter is killing pistol sales right now! 

I had planned to build a second AR pistol.  But no way I'm taking that chance until things get cleared up with the Sig Brace.  My money will go into other things until that mess is all cleared up.

Would you please elaborate

What atf letter is that ?

As usual Mac does a great job explaining the current issues regarding the sig brace.  Don't know what's so hard to understand it's sold as an "arm brace". Not shoulder brace/stock

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TYx3A80aBi0

It tells me the video is private and can't be viewed.  I guess I'm not an insider  ;D