Another Short COAL Thread with Berry's 124 Grain 9mm HBFP

[IDescribe]

So Wobbly, do you think it would be worth the time and effort to push further up the pressure ladder?  If so, how much further?

You would be better off getting more experience with a wider variety of bullets and powders so that you can get a better sense of how rounds behave in your pistol and be better able to read what you're seeing. 

Going up might be valuable at some point in the future, but I don't see any value in it for you right now.  On the other hand, I do see value in your respecting and following your instincts and concerns and exercising caution.  So go with that.   

[Dr_Sick_MMA]

Thanks guys, I think I'm pretty good then.  Just for kicks, I think I will play around with 4.4 and 4.5 just to see what happens.  But these are just for shooting paper and clanging steel so I agree, there isn't a whole lot of incentive to push any higher.

[Dr_Sick_MMA]

After feeling like I had this load all worked out, I went up to the range today and put 50 of them down the barrel.  Unfortunately, I had a number of failures to feed.

It might have been due to bullet design or the seating depth.  However, I honestly believe it had mostly to do with a combination of the two factors in addition to an absolutely filthy feed ramp.  I am using Unique and as soon as I took the barrel out of the pistol and wiped down the feed ramp until it was shiny again, I no longer experienced any failures to feed.

Guess I'll be cleaning her tonight and spending some time polishing the feed ramps since I have yet to do that.

[Dr_Sick_MMA]

Cleaned the gun, polished the feed ramps and the problem persisted.

The malfunctions looked just like this one:



Now I'm obsessed with understanding what is happening and how the situation can be fixed.

The three scenarios beyond my initial theory (that the dirtied feed ramps and weird shape of the bullets was causing them to jump up and miss the chamber... which has thus far been proven wrong) are that either the pressures are two low and thus are causing a short stroke of the slide and thus the subsequent round to not be picked up by the case head via the bolt face but rather, to be slid off of the top of the magazine by the friction of the bolt face/bottom of the slide against the midsection of the brass casing.

The second scenario might be that recoil and how I handle it, could cause the bullet on the top of the magazine to lurch forward relative to the rest of the gun (traveling back and upwards) due to inertia and causing a feeding issue similar to the one described above.

And finally, I heard about a situation on the Power Factor Podcast where a similar malfunction was caused by high pressure loads cycling the slide back and then forward so fast that the magazine spring didn't have enough time to push the round "on deck" up quick enough for it to be stripped off the top of the mag by the case head via the bolt face..

Possible fixes have been purchasing and installing a lower power recoil spring.  Another might be to increase the pressures in my loads.  The problem with this is that I was seeing what I thought were pressure signs in the ladder I worked up for this short COAL load.



I don't know.  What do you guys think?  Are the primers in the column furthest to the right looking a little hot?

First column I was getting: 916.12, 903.7, 886.20, 911.1, 915.3
Second column I was getting: 933.2, 988, 951.17, 976.5, 952
Third column I was getting: 1004, 989.1, 985.9, 1029, 1014
Fourth column I was getting: 1049, 1091, 1031, 1107

I don't think it was a high pressure, slow mag spring problem as the feed issues were happening with a full mag so there was plenty of spring tension. 

[Wobbly]

Good Doctor -
Frankly this thread has gotten so long and my memory so short that I need reminding of what primer you're using. But you have nothing to worry about, my friend. Allow me to show you a photo of some real primer concerns....



.............................Yours............................Mine.........................OMG !!

If you insist on watching primers, then watch the radius where the primer meets the pocket. All your primers still have the full radius. As was said before, I am more concerned with your feed issues than your loads.

? The gunk the Unique is leaving on the feed ramp should not stall the mechanical function of feeding. However, you can see that if you shot 200+ rounds in a competition that Unique might start to raise issues. It's one of the possibilities competitors look to eliminate in their preparation leading up to competition. And this is why Unique has fallen out of favor with many shooters. Now, I'm well aware that's all you could get THEN, but powders are making a comeback and one of the ones I'd like you to start casting around for is Winchester WSF. It's been at Recobs and Powder Valley, so it won't be long before it shows up on local store shelves. That will give you better metering, a cleaner burn, and much more believable results. Or maybe even Win 231 (Hodgdon HP-38) or Vit 320. (If you look at a powder burn rate chart, you'll see these generally clumped together.)

? While you still work with the Unique at 4.4 and 4.5gr, you've reached the place where you need to get your process honed. To accurately compare these 2 loads, I highly suggest you a) start using a single brand of brass, and b) start weighing each load (a PIA, but you only need 6-8 of each weight).

? IMHO the major contributors to feed issues are: bullet nose shape, OAL, magazines, slide lubrication, gun cleanliness, and springs... and roughly in that order. RN should have the least issues. Use the stock CZ mag for best results.

Hope this helps!   

[Dr_Sick_MMA]

Thanks so much Wobbly,

This does help.

I've been seeing WSF at my LGS but I've hesitated to pick it up because I'm lazy and don't want to develop a new load and am somewhat pot committed to Unique for the time being.  BUT, your suggestions might push me off my couch cushions and get me to pick up a few pounds.  It's hard to invest in a new powder when I'm not sure if I'll be able to find it again once I get something I like out of it.  This is my current situation with AA No.7 and Power Pro 300 MP

I have a single stage press and always hand weight every charge twice to three times before I seat a bullet.  I drop and then check on a digital.  I double check on a beam scale, trickle if necessary and then recheck on the digital once more before seating a bullet on top.

I'm about to move to a progressive though... maybe.

Since it seems I might have a little wiggle room with charges, I might push up again and see if I can get the thing to run reliably with a slightly hotter charge.

In the meanwhile I think I'll also load up some dummy rounds and see if I can replicate the malfunction by hand cycling the dummies with a short stroke.

Thanks again for your insights and expertise!

[Wobbly]

Good doctor -
Well I wouldn't advise buying "several pounds" of any un-tried powder. A 1# can is going to set you back about $23 and get 1500 cartridges filled. You're going to note several improvements at the very first shooting session. If it is like I say, then you can order up a 4# or 8# can.

There's also a second motive in this. What I do now is replenish the 1# can from the larger jug. That way if the can gets knocked over the most I can spill is 1/2#. And the small can will fit easily on my bench top to remind me what powder I'm working with. I'm one of those that keeps the can-in-use visible as a reminder. Following the "only one can visible at a time" rule.

If you stay with the single stage, then I want you to buy a powder measure. Midway has the Hornady PM on sale right now for $66. That's going to double your ammo output right there.

 

[Dr_Sick_MMA]

Is the Hornady powder measure any better than the RCBS one?  That's what I have and it seems to work well enough at the moment.

[jameslovesjammie]

Is the Hornady powder measure any better than the RCBS one?  That's what I have and it seems to work well enough at the moment.

If you already have a powder measurer, then you need to change this technique:

I have a single stage press and always hand weight every charge twice to three times before I seat a bullet.  I drop and then check on a digital.  I double check on a beam scale, trickle if necessary and then recheck on the digital once more before seating a bullet on top.

It is fine to verify charge weight every 10 rounds or so, but you will NEVER be able to see any amount of accuracy gain being this anal with a pistol.  The best pistol shooters in the world wouldn't be able to see a difference.  If you are doing this because of a safety concern, you need to take a deep breathe and relax.  Once your powder measurer is set, just routinely check it to make sure it hasn't significantly drifted.  If it has, correct the problem and pull the ones you loaded since your last check and redo them.

You are spending far too much time on the scales to be productive.  I will trickle charge a round during load development, but once I find a load I set the measurer and go to town!      Verify charges at a set interval, but let the measurer do it's job.   

[Dr_Sick_MMA]

If you are doing this because of a safety concern, you need to take a deep breathe and relax.  Once your powder measurer is set, just routinely check it to make sure it hasn't significantly drifted.  If it has, correct the problem and pull the ones you loaded since your last check and redo them.

You are spending far too much time on the scales to be productive.  I will trickle charge a round during load development, but once I find a load I set the measurer and go to town!      Verify charges at a set interval, but let the measurer do it's job.   

I do it for the safety concerns. What would be a "Significant Drift"?  I've found that unique will routinely drift from .2 up or down from one drop to another at times. People have told me that pistol work ups should be done in .1 increments. So .2 up or down seemed plenty significant to me. Hence the measured charge each time.

[painter]

Are you still developing your Unique loads or loading ammo? I have the RCBS Uniflow also, and haven't noticed that much spread in powder drops, even with Unique. For pistol loads that are below max I set the measure and drop ten charges. If the total wight is within .1 or .2 gr I go with that setting. If you're loading near max then a .2 overcharge might be a problem, but more so with a fast powder that spikes quickly.

Do you always keep your measure at least 1/2 full, and do you use a baffle? Another technique is to rattle the handle against the stops to settle the powder as you operate the measure.

I think James is correct in saying that the starting and stopping method is holding you back. In my experience it can also cause errors.

[Dr_Sick_MMA]

Painter,

Yes I use a baffle and no, my measure isn't 1/2 full or more.  I usually do small batches so I don't dump too much powder in there.  Will filling my measure up help with consistency?

Thanks again everyone for the replies in this thread.  I apologize for it's length but I must admit, I've learned a ton through this process and really enjoy reading everyone's informative replies.

[painter]

Painter,

Yes I use a baffle and no, my measure isn't 1/2 full or more.  I usually do small batches so I don't dump too much powder in there.  Will filling my measure up help with consistency?

Thanks again everyone for the replies in this thread.  I apologize for it's length but I must admit, I've learned a ton through this process and really enjoy reading everyone's informative replies.

You should get better consistency if the measure if the powder level stays above the baffle.

[Dr_Sick_MMA]

Right on Painter!  I'm going to experiment with your suggestion now! 

[Wobbly]

Is the Hornady powder measure any better than the RCBS one?  That's what I have and it seems to work well enough at the moment.

If you already have a powder measurer, then you need to change this technique:

I have a single stage press and always hand weight every charge twice to three times before I seat a bullet.  I drop and then check on a digital.  I double check on a beam scale, trickle if necessary and then recheck on the digital once more before seating a bullet on top.

It is fine to verify charge weight every 10 rounds or so, but you will NEVER be able to see any amount of accuracy gain being this anal with a pistol.  The best pistol shooters in the world wouldn't be able to see a difference.  If you are doing this because of a safety concern, you need to take a deep breathe and relax.  Once your powder measurer is set, just routinely check it to make sure it hasn't significantly drifted.  If it has, correct the problem and pull the ones you loaded since your last check and redo them.

You are spending far too much time on the scales to be productive.  I will trickle charge a round during load development, but once I find a load I set the measurer and go to town!      Verify charges at a set interval, but let the measurer do it's job.   

Based on your responses I was wondering the exact same thing, and couldn't have responded any better. ^^ This is excellent stuff. ^^


Here's what you should be doing....
? Use the small bore RCBS rotor, handle mounted as shown below
? Mount your PM to an independent support system, like this...

or this...

? Use a powder baffle
? Fill the hopper at least 1/3 full
? Never use the first 10 "drops"
? Use a technique that consistently double knocks the handle against the stops at each end of the "throw". I call this "knock knock".
? Set the measure by averaging 10. That is, if you want 4.3gr, then adjust your PM by dumping 10 and adjusting for 43.0gr. Some drops will be high, some low, but overall you'll be closer to what you want.
? Use a loading block to powder all your cases in a single 5 minute period. This helps standardize your technique, and allows you to compare powder heights within the cases.


? As practice, you're allowed to simply fill the PM and meter out powder, over and over until you hone your technique. No one here is going to ding you for practicing.   


You're very correct, pistol powder weights shouldn't vary by more than 0.1gr, but depending upon the type measure and brand of powder it will. If your technique is consistent, then your shooting results will be too. As was mentioned before, Unique will be one of those that wanders a little more than a ball-type powder.

You CAN weigh 10-12 loads to get around Unique's short comings during testing, but that is NOT a viable long-term production method. At some point you have to start metering powder. If your technique is as good as you can get it, but you still can't abide the metering habits of Unique, then it really is time to get another powder.


Hope this helps.