Author Topic: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?  (Read 6809 times)

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Offline RSR

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2015, 08:52:17 PM »
The OP said north woods, so I'm assuming black bears likely, grizzly outside chance...

Yes, .357 is impressive in a carbine:

.357


5.56


Main downside is that you're limited to a revolver however, with limited capacity and heavy.

And .38 special is much less impressive:


Also, another plus is the CCI snake shot loads are much more reliable (insofar as action goes) in a .357 pistol than their 9mm loads.  All I can find lately are the 9mm and 22lr ones though...
The CCI 38/357 loads don't always allow the cylinder to rate on .38 special revolvers though, so you'll need the heavier/more robust .357 revolver...  Uncertain about how they function in carbines...
Good read: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/chris-dumm/lever-action-ballistics-30-30-vs-357-magnum/
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 10:59:23 PM by RSR »

Offline doctorj77

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2015, 11:56:14 PM »
Thank you all for the valuable information. But one main point I think got missed,  I'd like to carry it, as in loaded, with my cpl, in my vehicle,  legally.  Unless I'm wrong, I wasn't aware you can legally carry a loaded sbr in Michigan.  As for other practical choices in the woods, I have my Trooper MKIII 357, or a Para P14 45acp as options.

I was trying to emphasize my questions more around the pros / cons of a AK pistol.  Which I think some of the other posters elaborated on, thank you
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 12:07:39 AM by doctorj77 »

Offline TJNewton

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2015, 12:35:41 AM »
I can see why you're considering getting an AK pistol.  Where I live, if you have a rifle in the trunk, you can't have a round in the chamber, and you can't have a loaded magazine inserted into the rifle.  You can have a loaded magazine in the trunk and no specifications as to where that loaded magazine is in relation to the rifle (except of course not in locked in the well).  In my case, I have a Ruger 77 357, which has 5-round rotary magazines, with 2 loaded ones in a butt pouch.  Very quick to insert the magazine and chamber a round and be ready.  You can't do that with a tube-magazine lever gun. 

What is the restriction in Michigan on rifle magazines in the trunk?


Offline doctorj77

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2015, 12:46:18 AM »
I honestly couldn't say the exact law, but im pretty sure they cant co-exist in the same compartment. Out of habit  I've always just kept them separated during transport  'mag/ammo in backseat, rifles/shotguns unloaded in the trunk '. But since I got my cpl about 7yrs ago now, amongst all the Handguns I've owned "100+", I've only been considering a  AK pistol. And I'm mainly stuck on a AK or variant because of how much 7.62 I've accumulated.  Looking around tonight,  I found a PAP M92 with a Sig brace nib for just under $590 shipped..... it's tempting

smokemup

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2015, 01:22:54 AM »
Looks like it's your only option, and nothing wrong with the choice given your Michigan circumstances. Separated and in the trunk vs functional and laying on the seat next to you is a no brainer. There's been ATF discussion about the braces lately and I really don't know where it stands now, like is shouldering the brace illegal now, or was that just a passing thought a couple months ago? I suppose if it is...just don't shoulder it in view of the law. I saw a folding brace attachment on an AK, which would be pretty cool to have, and one with a bit of an extension. I think most everyone gets the idea behind the brace, just like the use of the buffer tube on an AR pistol. Great cheek welds for stability! And pull it back a bit further and you're shouldered. Viola, a legal SBR/pistol combo.

Found that folding pic on a PAP. Looks good.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 01:34:13 AM by smokemup »

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2015, 02:21:57 AM »
The law is very gray about putting an AR "pistol" tube onto a non-AR for the purpose of mounting an AR brace or other non-stock accessories to an AR tube...  Reason being, the tube is required for bolt to reciprocate on ARs, but isn't on other weapon systems...

That's why I suggested sticking w/ the AK brace, since it's approved for that platform... 

What I have seen seems to indicate that BATF frowns on psuedo stocks but realizes it can't outright ban buffer tubes on ARs...  I don't believe it has ruled on the tubes, but one of those things like shouldering the Sig Brace where if/when enough people ask them about it that I can't help but anticipate that it becomes illegal...  Specifically under the ruling/guidance on shouldering the sig brace, touching a pistol buffer tube to your shoulder would effectively make the pistol buffer tube a stock and accordingly your pistol an unregistered sbr...  Food for thought as to mounting a century pap folding stock mechanism to your "pistol" and then mounting an ar "pistol" tube to it and still claiming that it's a pistol...
Like CNCW sells here: http://www.cncwarrior.com/PAP-Sidefolding-Arm-Brace-p/26561.htm


Offline RSR

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2015, 07:34:34 PM »
March 2015
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/03/foghorn/atf-an-sb-15-stabilizing-brace-on-ak-pistol-is-legal-but-careful-how-you-do-it/

Yes, this is the letter I was thinking of.  Short version of my take is the way the batf has interpreted and acted previously, you're pretty much setting yourself up for constructive possession or similar allegation by/from the batf or other LE if they decide to make your life difficult.  As those things typically go for firearms owners, the burden of proof will be on YOU to prove YOUR INNOCENCE...  A pretty costly and high stakes affair, and exactly opposite of the way our justice system is supposed to work, especially considering that per the BATF your intentions are what matters as to whether your weapon's configuration constitutes an SBR, not just how it's been used...  And if you intend to ultimately/eventually make a pistol an SBR or hypothetically ever see the need or circumstance to mount the components that could constitute a stock to your shoulder, you can't have possession of components to make it an SBR until paperwork has been filed and approved, etc, else you're committing a felony.  Even legal pistol tube usage would technically be a violation under batf guidance if you ever intend to possibly convert a given pistol to an sbr.  Bottom line, the BATF's guidance is a complete mess, and it's probably easiest to just stay out of the rabbit hole...

And from the article above:
Quote
That may somehow make sense from the ATF?s perspective, but in terms of practical usage there?s a little bit of confusion. Do you need a tax stamp to transit through the NFA-regulated middle position of an AK pistol with a buffer tube on you way to a pistol? How about if you intend to use the buffer tube as a chin weld device, which is perfectly OK? As always, there are more questions than answers.

Further, per the batf, the only legal way to make an unregistered SBR legal is to file paper work to make it an SBR and then file paperwork again to remove it from the registry...  (I'm not actually sure if you can, per letter of law, legally register an unregistered SBR -- have never looked at the paperwork and all the legalese one agrees to and whether you're perjuring yourself or otherwise have to affirm that it hasn't yet been made an sbr...) 
Accidentally or inadvertently "remaking" the weapon whether touching to your shoulder or not having a pistol tube approved device on the tube would mean, per the batf, that you have an illegal weapon in perpetuity unless you follow the BATF's prescription for properly registering and then removing as noted above...  And it's not how a weapon is being used in a moment, it's how the weapon has EVER been used (in addition to intentions), so if you/a buddy touches your gun's sig brace to his shoulder (even perhaps if it's someone who can't handle a given pistol's recoil), it's still an illegal weapon...  And technically, the burden would be on you to prove you've never used/"remade" the components that could constitute a stock in a way that would make them a stock...  Again, this is all mess... 

And if you intend to play in the gray zone, you'd be legally best suited to buy a pistol from a retailer in a configuration that has received brace/other "pistol" aid features approval batf in that configuration...

*I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.  Just offering my perspective.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 07:58:14 PM by RSR »

Offline doctorj77

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2015, 11:00:36 PM »
Well I took the plunge.  I ordered a  Zastava m92 from preppergunshop with the Sig sb-47 brace attached, for $589 shipped. Then I ordered 10 tapco mags for $64 shipped.  So for $650 I should be having some fun in the next few weekends.

smokemup

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2015, 11:20:54 PM »
Well I took the plunge.  I ordered a  Zastava m92 from preppergunshop with the Sig sb-47 brace attached, for $589 shipped. Then I ordered 10 tapco mags for $64 shipped.  So for $650 I should be having some fun in the next few weekends.

Not sure about the rest of you, but I'm thinking follow-up videos would be appropriate required.  O0

Congrats!

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2015, 08:57:46 AM »
Well I took the plunge.  I ordered a  Zastava m92 from preppergunshop with the Sig sb-47 brace attached, for $589 shipped. Then I ordered 10 tapco mags for $64 shipped.  So for $650 I should be having some fun in the next few weekends.

Not sure about the rest of you, but I'm thinking follow-up videos would be appropriate required.  O0

Congrats!

Yes I agree, Followup videos should be presented on the AK File Forums, where we talk about AK variants.  http://www.akfiles.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline PLANofMAN

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2015, 02:37:16 PM »
Well I can't argue I like the VZ better. But as mentioned, I'd like to carry this,  loaded in my car.  So I can't legally do that with my rifle as is in the state of Michigan.  I have my cpl and would like to take advantage of a 7.62 pistol. Unfortunately I can't have both, only one toy at a time.  Was more curious about the advantages vs. Disadvantages of a 7.62 pistol is all
My advice would be to carry a loaded handgun, and keep the vz58 in the trunk with the magazine in your glovebox. The old adage still applys. "use a knife to get a pistol, use the pistol to get a rifle."

In most situations, you would have time to get the rifle out and loaded. If you don't have time for that, then a regular pistol would be a better choice regardless.

smokemup

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2015, 04:09:18 PM »
My advice would be to carry a loaded handgun, and keep the vz58 in the trunk with the magazine in your glovebox. The old adage still applys. "use a knife to get a pistol, use the pistol to get a rifle."

In most situations, you would have time to get the rifle out and loaded. If you don't have time for that, then a regular pistol would be a better choice regardless.

Just today in Detroit, as I was minding my own business while stopped at a red light, there was a commotion several cars up ahead of me. A prison transport bus was being overtaken by inmates, of all things. They grabbed two of the guards handguns and piled out of the bus with that obligatory crazed convict look on their faces. Scary. They waved those pistols at everyone and took a few pot shots at pedestrians as they came right toward me. No time to grab my VZ magazine out of the glove box and get to the trunk for the rifle! But wait! I forgot I had just purchased a Zastava M92 loaded with 30 rounds of convict stopping firepower and there it was, laying on the seat beside me. What a relief! I reached for it and rolled out of the car and took out all the convicts in a move that would even make Bruce Willis proud, saved everyone's life, and was awarded the key to the City of Detroit.


Was that good for you too? Haha. I know, it needs some dramatic background music...

 O0



   
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 04:12:20 PM by smokemup »

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2015, 04:18:04 PM »
My advice would be to carry a loaded handgun, and keep the vz58 in the trunk with the magazine in your glovebox. The old adage still applys. "use a knife to get a pistol, use the pistol to get a rifle."

In most situations, you would have time to get the rifle out and loaded. If you don't have time for that, then a regular pistol would be a better choice regardless.

Just today in Detroit, as I was minding my own business while stopped at a red light, there was a commotion several cars up ahead of me. A prison transport bus was being overtaken by inmates, of all things. They grabbed two of the guards handguns and piled out of the bus with that obligatory crazed convict look on their faces. Scary. They waved those pistols at everyone and took a few pot shots at pedestrians as they came right toward me. No time to grab my VZ magazine out of the glove box and get to the trunk for the rifle! But wait! I forgot I had just purchased a Zastava M92 loaded with 30 rounds of convict stopping firepower and there it was, laying on the seat beside me. What a relief! I reached for it and rolled out of the car and took out all the convicts in a move that would even make Bruce Willis proud, saved everyone's life, and was awarded the key to the City of Detroit.


Was that good for you too? Haha. I know, it needs some dramatic background music...


Wow, am I dumb.  When I first started reading this I thought is was for real.  Then I got to the bottom and read about the keys to the city, Bruce Willis, etc.   in reality, you would either: 1. Be shot dead by arriving police; 2. Be in prison with a fear of dropping the soap in the shower; 3. Be sued by the relatives of the convicts; 2 and 3; or 4. Become the poster child for anti-gun nuts worldwide leading up to a complete ban on all AK pistols in the US.  ;D
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline munchie3409

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Re: VZ2008 or AK pistol ?
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2015, 05:48:04 PM »
OP did you really think you were going to get people to tell you to buy the PAP over keeping the VZ2008 on a CZ/VZ forum?

I really like the CzechPoint 556 pistol...I did want to convert it or SBR it, but the cost was a big factor.  The CzechPoint was over double the cost of my PAP M85NP before I even added the brace and parts needed.

I may pick up the CzechPoint down the road as I'd like to try their AR15 magwell, but I will be buying another PAP M85NP before that happens.

I shot my M85NP last weekend out to 402 yards using my Aimpoint T1 with no magnification.

OP, my state is the same as MI...I can legally carry a loaded pistol, but I am unable to have a loaded long gun.