VZ2008 or AK pistol ?

[doctorj77]

Trying to decide on the following, should I keep my vz2008 rifle, or get a AK 47 pistol? I currently have a century vz2008 and have been very happy with it. But lately I've been daydreaming the idea of carrying an AK style pistol for a multitude of reasons. The biggest  reason is just to have something compact and more portable for when up north in the woods. Would like to carry it in the truck when out on the trails.
 
So with the design differences of a VZ vs. an AK set aside, is there any reason not to get an AK pistol? I know some may say " just get both". but I don't have that luxury unfortunately. I have to sell one toy to get another. So the one I'm considering is a Zastava PAP 92 as the prices are fairly in line with the VZ.


Are there any inherent issues with the shorter barrel length that would sway someone not the purchase it? not looking for validation to keep the VZ but just looking for pros and cons between the two .

[nickndfl]

They are flame throwers.  A novelty, but nothing I would use for self-defense.

[Horse]

The main positive is that if you got a VZ pistol you could share mags etc.

[TJNewton]

The VZ 2008 is almost pistol length when folded, about 28".  Most AK pistols are around 20".  I think the difference in compactness is moot as neither one is really concealable on the body.  Both would easily fit into a trunk or even a backpack.  That 8" isn't going be an issue.  Keep both your VZ2008 and your Zastava.

[doctorj77]

Well I can't argue I like the VZ better. But as mentioned, I'd like to carry this,  loaded in my car.  So I can't legally do that with my rifle as is in the state of Michigan.  I have my cpl and would like to take advantage of a 7.62 pistol. Unfortunately I can't have both, only one toy at a time.  Was more curious about the advantages vs. Disadvantages of a 7.62 pistol is all

[Brasky]

I would carry a handgun such as a revolver or larger caliber semi-auto before I would carry an ak pistol in the woods

[RSR]

Shoulder stocks are a huge, huge bonus if you won't/can't sbr. 

Further, the AK pistol arm brace plus a CNCW 4 piece brake (tames flash and softens recoil -- and weights 7.5 oz) makes the M92 package longer than a folded stock VZ58 w/ 16" barrel.  I also think the folding stock rifle VZ58 will weigh less w/ a loaded mag and a similarly configured m92 (sbred w/ brace/stock, 4 piece brake, etc), due in a large part the reduced mag weights. 

Atlantic lists the M92 @ 5.7 lbs and 19".  Add a ~3" muzzle device and you're at 22.5" easy. 
W/ sb47 @ 21.75 oz, you'd be looking brace at ~8.45 lbs.
Add a muzzle device of any type and you're at 8.7 lbs. 
*M92s also are missing a rear sling attachment point.  So you're either adding a steel CNCW sling loop plate or looping it around your stock arm.

VZ2008s stock are just under 7lbs.  Add a heavier muzzle device and some other crap and you're still pretty well below 8.5 lbs.

And that's before you account for mags... 
VZ58 mags are IMO far superior to AK mags.  You can run polymer AK mags (perhaps 20 rounders) to reduce weight, but they aren't as durable as steel -- and polymer 30 round AK mags weigh about the same if not more than the aluminum VZ58 mag... 

If you want an SBR weapon for a role where compactness is key, I think the pap is pretty solid choice.  Like for a truck/trunk gun...  My take is that for carrying in back country, weight matters a lot.  If you aren't needing to hunt large game, take a serious look at 5.56 -- like a utilitarian lightweight AR -- or even a 14.5" 300 blk with a fixed muzzle device to save the SBR stamp. 

Weight conscious and 7.62x39 it's really hard to beat a bare bones VZ58. 

Size, VZ58 will be ~26-28" stock folded depending on muzzle device vs M92 at ~22" w/ muzzle device and ~32" w/ SB47 brace and muzzle device.  W/ that increased barrel length, you cut down considerably on barrel length and result in a less front heavy/better balanced weapon.  Spec forces brakes at 4oz are the heaviest I'm aware of for the VZ58...  You also gain velocity and also reduce muzzle blast/noise slightly too. 

Main drawback of VZ58 is that getting your hands on reduced capacity mags (20 rounders are a very handy size in 7.62x39 and result in a faster pointing gun for me at least than 30s) can be a challenge...  It is a little longer, but 4-5" isn't much, especially if you're going to be slinging the weapon most of the time anyways. 

In regards to price, that's also a drawback for VZ58s if you're convinced you need an SBR as the only option is Czechpoint, and they're pricey, plus you need add in the cost of getting and installing a stock.  M92 is definitely a more cost friendly starting point if you're curious about 7.62x39 in a shorter barrel (10.5") but aren't ready commit to full sbr.  VZ58 pistols are 11.9" barrels.   (FWIW, Jim Fuller of Rifle Dynamics recommends no 7.62x39 Aks w/ barrels of less than 10.5" for serious work and I believe he cuts most of his custom AK barrels back to the 14" length or so...  I'd imagine it's on his website if you're curious about all the reasons why.)

[Horse]

(It's so that when a muzzle device is installed it's still 16.1"   )

[smokemup]

At least with the VZ you've got a slender folding stock that stays out of the way and gives you the option of having a stock for more precision shooting if you need it. I've been down the AR pistol path and found it to be of little value as an overall defensive weapon. I liked the transition speed, but I like more options, however, that was also a 5.56, which, to me, ruins the value of a bullet designed for 3k velocity (tumbling/fragmenting effect), that's reduced to about 2300 fps out of an 7.5" or so barrel. With a 7.62 you've got some mass at impact and not as dependent on velocity. I suppose ideally a 7.62 SBR with a folding stock that allows you to shoot while folded, would fit the best role as a defensive weapon and can still be shouldered for some stability.   

[JohnEd]

I bought another Savage Target Action.  When it arrived I told my Smith to register it as a "pistol".  He balked and, yes, this was a while ago.  They changed the rules about pistols and rifles.  My action had never been registered so I had the option of classifying it as a pistol OR A rifle.  Here is the really good news:  Since I classified it as a pistol I can install a short barrel and no stock, etc. and BECAUSE it is a pistol and under the new reg I can install a long barrel and make it into a rifle.  Then I can change it back.  Under the old rules if you made a pistol into a rifle it was forever required to be equipped as a rifle......dang it.  The new rules take into account the savage shooter with the switch barrel technology.

We don't have the switch barrel option like a Savage but isn't it prudent to register our first time registered receivers as "pistols' just in case or whatever.  Just for the sake of option if nothing else.  Looks like the pistols are pretty rare. 

[CitizenPete]

Trying to decide on the following, should I keep my vz2008 rifle, or get a AK 47 pistol? I currently have a century vz2008 and have been very happy with it. But lately I've been daydreaming the idea of carrying an AK style pistol for a multitude of reasons. The biggest  reason is just to have something compact and more portable for when up north in the woods. Would like to carry it in the truck when out on the trails.
 
So with the design differences of a VZ vs. an AK set aside, is there any reason not to get an AK pistol? I know some may say " just get both". but I don't have that luxury unfortunately. I have to sell one toy to get another. So the one I'm considering is a Zastava PAP 92 as the prices are fairly in line with the VZ.


Are there any inherent issues with the shorter barrel length that would sway someone not the purchase it? not looking for validation to keep the VZ but just looking for pros and cons between the two .

Oddly enough I sold a milled Bulgarian AKM Pistol to fund the purchase of a CSA Vzor 58 Pistol (carbine length - ~12").



If you pick up a Krink length AKM then you will have massive muzzle blast, as the burning power is still in the combustion process as it is coming out of the barrel.  Basically a flame thrower with a difficult accurate operation for successive shots much past 25 feet.  Same with a CSA Sa. Compact 762 Pistol w/ sub 8" barrel I would guess.  Make it an SBR and your accuracy should go up.

Century does make a Vzor 58 variant pistol that I believe has the long receiver and 12" barrel. Saw one of them on Gunbroker, but they must be rare, as that is the only one I have seen to date.

While 7.62x39 is a good design for shorter barrels, as it does not loose significant velocity as the barrel length gets reduced, when you get down to 8" pistol lengths the velocity does drop (there is probably a chart online somewhere) and I suspect along with accuracy at any distance certainly past 100m.

In my opinion, and for my preferences, I would move to a different caliber with the AKM pistol -- the 30 cal. 762x39 is to much flame and too uncontrollable on follow up shots for sub 8" barrels - again for me.   Now if it was full-auto that might be a different story. 

 Hence I sold my AKM and went with the 12" Sa. Vz.58. Again this is my personal preference.

12" CSA Sa. 762 Pistol - mag dump test (controllable muzzle with little flame):

https://youtu.be/UjQ4db_Ys08?t=7s

As an SBR:

[RSR]

(It's so that when a muzzle device is installed it's still 16.1"   )

Talking about fullers 14?  Yes, that's part of it, but he also replaces the gas blocks w/ a dual gas block front sight unit and talks about how it makes for a better balanced overall weapon by shortening the barrel and otherwise removing weight from the front end. 

Believe somewhere he discussed the whys of that length ballistically as well...

[RSR]

Between the Bulgarian/Romanian and other AK pistols at 8" vs 10.5" on the yugo, you're looking at an increase in barrel length in excess of 31%. That's much more substantial than you realize when just looking at it as 2.5". 

EDIT: And it's actually more of a difference than that in regards to actual barrel length when you consider that barrel length includes the chamber as well... 
8" barrel minus ~1.5" case = ~6.5" rifling
10.5" barrel minus ~1.5" case = ~9" rifling. 
Difference in barrel when accounting for case/chamber increases to 38.5% increase for the 10.5" barrel vs 8" one.

In regards to the 4 piece brakes, they are real producers, but heavy.

https://youtu.be/zOa2OsmRgXY

https://youtu.be/SfIfR3R6F_I

https://youtu.be/qMumsBd13QI

https://youtu.be/zgC7Dk2mr80

https://youtu.be/o4Evztbs2AE

Some full size rifles:

(YHM Phantom and 4 piece produced least amount of flash -- phantom variants are available for the VZ58, though not YHM) https://youtu.be/mzhVEi3iOXA

https://youtu.be/05R-FWkHAL8

[RSR]

Century does make a Vzor 58 variant pistol that I believe has the long receiver and 12" barrel. Saw one of them on Gunbroker, but they must be rare, as that is the only one I have seen to date.

While 7.62x39 is a good design for shorter barrels, as it does not loose significant velocity as the barrel length gets reduced, when you get down to 8" pistol lengths the velocity does drop (there is probably a chart online somewhere) and I suspect along with accuracy at any distance certainly past 100m.

Was that VZ2008 being sold as a pistol or sold as an SBR?  I've never seen a CAI VZ58 variant pistol, so my guess at first blush is someone's diy conversion from VZ2008 rifle to an sbr...

If you want to handload your 7.62x39 rounds w/ a faster burning propellant or pay a loader for custom rounds, you open up considerably more barrel length, etc, possibilities.  If you just want to shoot cheap russian bulk, then do take above into consideration...

[TJNewton]

The biggest  reason is just to have something compact and more portable for when up north in the woods. Would like to carry it in the truck when out on the trails.

What do you anticipate using the firearm against?  Bears, cats, coyotes?  Drug dealers?  Frisky mountain men?

If you're concerned about two-legged predators, probably a high-capacity full-size 9mm handgun, and maybe compliment it with a light 9mm carbine kept unloaded but with some mags nearby. 

If it's large critters, then maybe a .357 revolver with a .357 carbine, either a lever gun or a Ruger bolt-action.  Out of a longer barrel, the .357 round has the same energy (although it gets there a completely different way) as .223 or 5.56.  With hotter-loads (Double Tap, HSM, Buffalo Bore), the .357 approaches 7.62x39 energy.  All with a much, much heavier bullet.  That carries true up to about 150-200 yards, then there's significant and rapid loss of velocity and energy.  A .357 bullet from a carbine at 200 yards has more energy than from a revolver at the muzzle.  The 9mm gains some, but nearly as much.