Primer Experiment

[ReloaderFred]

Federal primers have a slightly softer cup material and a different priming material.  They will ignite when others won't in handguns with lightened hammer springs.  They're the primary choice in highly tuned revolvers.  They're also my preferred primer, with MagTech being second, simply because they go off when hit in my tuned firearms.  Winchester and Remington are in between the softest and hardest, with CCI being the hardest.  I don't use anything Russian.

With that said, most problems with primers are caused from not being seated properly.  The anvil sits a little high in an unseated primer, and this is on purpose.  When the primer is properly seated, the primer cup will be seated against the bottom of the primer pocket solidly.  This sets the anvil into the primer pellet so that when the firing pin strikes the primer cup, the distance between the anvil and the indentation is correct to set off the primer pellet.

If the primer isn't seated properly, as in not deep enough into the primer pocket, then the first strike of the firing pin usually finishes seating it.  The second strike will set it off, since it's now properly seated.  In this instance it's not a primer problem, rather a seating problem.

I seat my primers to -.004" to -.005" below flush with the base of the case.  This ensures the anvil is properly seated into the primer pellet and the primer will detonate when struck by the firing pin.

In seating over 850,000 primers, I can only remember two that were "bad".  One didn't contain an anvil, and one didn't contain a primer pellet.  You can figure the odds if you care to, but I'd say that's a pretty good track record for the primer manufacturers....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[wingspar]

I don?t have any ?tunned? handguns nor have I put light springs in any gun.  I tend to leave my guns stock, with a couple of exceptions, but it sounds like I shouldn?t let that dictate whether or not I use Federal Primers?

I have not run across anyone talking about primer seating depth before.  I just measured a few random primers from my most recent .308 reloads, and found one 0.004 and the rest 0.005 to 0.010.  How would one go about seating them to a certain depth all the time, and is that really important?

I?ve been able to find small pistol primers, Federal and Winchester today, but no powder.  I guess I could double up on primers and get powder when and if I can ever find any.  What ever my Lyman Manual says it the preferred powder for what I want to load is the powder that is nowhere to be found.  Frustrating for a new reloader.  Makes me want to hoard the rifle primers and powder now while it is available.  I hate horders.

[ReloaderFred]

For exact primer seating, I prefer the RCBS or Lyman Ram Prime tools.  They sit on top of a single stage press and you can set the exact depth you wish to seat the primers.  I've tried just about every priming method in the past 51 years of reloading, and this has proven to be the best for me.

Some swear by the hand priming tools, and I've used both the Lee and the Hornady hand priming tools.  I broke both of the Lee tools, since they were made of pot metal.  The Hornady was made better, but I don't like the fact that my hands get tired squeezing on them, and that you can't set the depth for repeatability.  Some swear by the "feel" of the primers seating, but all primer pockets aren't the same.

I've also used the RCBS APS system, and it worked ok.  You have to either buy the CCI primers in strips, or get the strip loader and load the primer brand of your choice into the strips.  CCI primers aren't my first choice, so that meant loading my Federal and MagTech primers into the strips first.  This took about the same length of time as loading primer tubes for other priming methods, but it still wasn't quite what I was looking for in a priming tool.  I settled on the Ram Prime because it's an exact system for seating primers.

If you get a primer too deep into the pocket, the firing pin may not be long enough to reliably set them off, and if you don't get them deep enough, you get the situation I described in my previous post.

I very seldom seat primers on my progressive presses, preferring to run sized and primed brass through them.  And since it's my shop, and I make the rules, that's how I do it, simply because it works for me and I don't have primer problems, period.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Tok36]

^^ Interesting stuff.

[wingspar]

For exact primer seating, I prefer the RCBS or Lyman Ram Prime tools.  They sit on top of a single stage press and you can set the exact depth you wish to seat the primers.  I've tried just about every priming method in the past 51 years of reloading, and this has proven to be the best for me.

Looked that up on YouTube.  Looks interesting.  I put it in my wish list for further consideration.  Thanks.

[Smitty79]

I ran the 8.5# hammer spring test a week early.   I was astounded by the result.

Let me state the gun and conditions so that people don't have to run back through the thread to find it.   I am shooting a CZ Custom Shadow Custom (91030).    I have done no extra polishing.   I am running a CZC extended firing pin, and a CZC reduced power firing pin spring with one coil cut.    My previous testing, listed in this thread, were with an 11.5# CGW hammer spring.   Today's testing was with a CGW 8.5# hammer spring.    The gun had been freshly field stripped, cleaned and lubed.    I had also run some brake cleaner down the firing pin channel.

I tested 50 rounds each of the listed primers.   Primers are listed in the order tested.   Unless otherwise noted, all rounds were shot in single action.

Federal:  6 rounds failed to fire on first strike.    One of those, would only fire in DA.   The rest fired in SA mode on the second attempt.

CCI:  7 failed to fire on first strike.    All subsequently fired in SA mode.

Magtech:    4 failed to fire on first strike.    All subsequently fired in SA mode.   This surprised me as Magtech was worse on the 11.5# test.

Remington:   One complete dud.   All other rounds fired on first SA strike.

S&B:   10 rounds failed to fire on first strike.    One of those, would only fire in DA.

I was wondering if a "dirty gun" might be an advantage for primer reliability, so I shot another 10 rounds of Federal primed ammo.   3 failed to fire on the first SA pull.    All subsequently fired in SA.

I'm going to put the 11.5# spring back in the gun.   The DA pull feels "mushy" with the 8.5#.   I bet I could train to get used to it.    But I don't see a benefit right now.

[1SOW]

Interesting.  I wonder what's different on yours than mine.
I have the CZC extended FP and the CGW disco that I put in.  Before the disco it was still 100% with Feds.
Your Fed results are close to what I get with WIN primers.  Mine has never failed with a Fed primer. 

I've never measured primer seating depths.  I seat them as deep as they'll go with the LEE on-press primer system.  They are clearly below the case base visually as I put them into MTM ammo cases.

[Smitty79]

I may have a primer seating problem.     But that can't be everything, even with the Federal.   The fact that multiple SA restrikes didn't ignite the primer until I did the DA shot makes me think it's the primer.

Does anyone know if the CGW extended firing pin might be more effective at making the gun go bang than the CZC one that's in the gun right now?

[papaairbear]

Hi Smitty,

I have a digital caliper I can measure primer seating depth with, so I can seat some Feds in some cases and bring them over if you want.  We can compare the depths.  Your issue just seems like seating depth to me.?  PM your address if you want.

[Revan]

I received my CZC ACCU Shadow 91730 a little over a week ago and immediately dropped in the 11.5# CGW hammer spring and TRS. I reload on a 650 with Winchester SPP and after 620 rounds or so I have had zero light strikes. I have polished the internals now and will try the 8.5# spring when I get a chance this week just to see what happens and report my findings.

[1SOW]

Nice pistol Revan!
The 11.5# spring should run fine with Win and even harder primers.
The 8.5# spring may be another story---some run pretty well with WIN or even a little harder primers and some don't.

[skin]

 wingspan , Brownells sells primer pocket uniforming tools for both rifle and pistol.  I use it mainly for rifle, but have experimented using it for pistol. It does make a difference in group size and standard deviation. It's a little more work, but it only has to be done once. I get ocd when I reload . As a side note, I have switched to starline pistol brass because of its uniformity. I usually don't have to uniform their pistol brass. I hope this helps.

[Revan]

Thanks 1SOW  I am really loving it and have forsaken all my Glocks. I just installed the 8.5# hammer spring and decided to do some primer testing prior to going to range. I loaded up 10 cases primers only, four of which with intentional high primers.

Both DA and SA had 100% ignition on the properly seated primers and two out of the four high primers still went off on first hammer strike (which I am going to take as a good sign). I realize this is a very small sampling but if I had no joy then it's useless going to range with the 8.5# spring.

I will say that as amazing as the trigger was before, it absolutely stellar with the 8.5# and I would gladly switch to Federal primers if I need to for reliability.

[ES13Raven]

I am shooting a CZ Custom Shadow Custom (91030).

Interesting test.  I also have a Shadow Custom 91030, with the only modification changing the 13# hammer spring to a 11.5#.  Thousands of CCI and WIN primers have gone bang 100% of the time.  I load on a 550b.

[Smitty79]

Does anyone have any idea how to seat primers deeper with a 550b?