Author Topic: Load testing: Hodgdon CFE Pistol powder  (Read 29567 times)

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Offline copemech

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2015, 12:51:53 AM »
Managed a couple more refinements to my system today and put together test ladders for accuracy using the HAP and CFE to compare with a couple other 115gr factory loads.

15 rds ea(5x3) of 5.3,5.5,5.7 and 5.9gr loads for the test.

This stuff just takes time. Gun ready, P09 in full CGW trim and Burris FFlll dialed in. Now to find some range time!

I almost hate to waste this stuff at 15 yds, may go straight to 25.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2015, 12:19:48 PM »
The coating is getting the bullet to move quicker out of the chamber but is lacking the obturation at the base of the bullet to seal the gases. So they need to up their charge weight to get to what they got without the coating.

No, no.  I'm not suggesting the low friction coatings affect obturation.  I'm saying that there's a common conception that higher friction between the barrel and bullet will decrease overall velocity, and that's not necessarily true.

Smokeless powder burns faster the more pressure it's under, so as the powder burns, pressure goes up, which causes the powder to burn faster, which causes pressure to go up, which causes the powder to burn faster, and so on, and so on. So anything we do to increase pressure early results in a geometrically greater pressure overall.  It's a positive feedback loop.  When the primer goes off, powder starts burning, pressure starts rising, and the bullet begins to move into and down the barrel. The thing is, while the ever faster burning powder and additional gaseous nitrogen works to increase pressure, the bullet moving into and down the barrel has the effect of expanding the combustion chamber, which reduces pressure.  Through the first part of the burn, the expanding gases have a greater positive effect on pressure than the expanding chamber has on reducing pressure, but as the fuel source dwindles and the chamber continues to expand, the pressure starts falling.  That's why the pressure curve rises then falls. 

So, while increased friction certainly has the effect of decreasing acceleration, that decrease in acceleration has the affect of slowing down the expansion of the combustion chamber, which has a positive effect on pressure. What I've read of the bench rest shooters needing to increase powder charges after coating bullets with low-friction coatings to achieve the same velocities they had before would seem to indicate that the decrease in acceleration you get from higher friction is outweighed by the increase in pressure you get from the more slowly expanding combustion chamber.  I suppose that which is the greater effect could change with a given bullet weight, shank length, actual diameter relative to barrel, standard pressure levels, the particular barrel, powder, etc., etc., but it should not be assumed that higher friction between bullet and barrel results in lower velocity because in some cases the opposite is demonstrably true.

NOW, the reason all that mattered for the previous point is that for the two bullets I referenced -- the 125gr Blue RN and the 124gr JHP -- it would seem that given the same charge weight, the 124gr should have the advantage with velocity.  It's lighter (by a hair) but it's seated much more deeply into the case.  But there is some other factor that is giving the 125gr Blue Rn the velocity advantage at a given charge weight.  The 125gr Blue RN coated lead bullet gets an extra 35 feet per sec at charge weight I referenced, and the JHP does in fact need an extra .2 grains to achieve the same velocity, AND the deeper seating depth should have been worth an extra .2 grains worth of powder, so it would seem the .001 larger, better obturating bullet is worth about .4 grains of powder there, which is significant.  I know it won't play out exactly like that with every bullet comparison of the same or almost the same weight, but I would guess the better obturating bullet in that situation is always going to show the higher pressure.  The reason it mattered to point out that a higher friction coefficient doesn't translate to slower velocity is to preemptively remove the idea that the reason the 124gr JHP needed extra powder was to overcome the greater friction.  I was basically anticipating and addressing an argument before it was made. ;)

edited to correct three type-os
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 09:10:50 AM by IDescribe »

Offline copemech

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2015, 01:03:55 AM »
Hello ID, me again with more questions relating to this thread and my specific loads used as listed here with the Hap and CFE in a search for accuracy...

Which velocity would you guess just works out to 100 yds? Or more?

Yes, we need a good bullet, then we need to propel it to a velocity that will twist it up to gyro stabilize it, yet it seems to me that within itself will degrade as distance increases and velocity decreases.

Yet, at the same time, no need to overdrive it in a search for high PF. Someone termed it "wasted powder"!

In my realm, testing is still subjective and only as good as I may be on the day.

My thoughts are running along the lines of the 1200 fps range for longer range stability with a 115 gr bullet.

Input appreciated.

Mark

Offline jameslovesjammie

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2015, 09:02:03 AM »
James, I don't know this to be true, but I suspect the higher pressure is due to the better containment of gas.  I can't imagine that it takes more force to push a lead a lead/moly bullet at .356 into a 9mm barrel than it does to push the much harder jacketed bullet into the barrel, even at .355, especially with the harder, higher zinc content jackets of the Montana Gold. 

So a real world example -- my .356 Blue Bullet 125gr RN with a seating depth of .219 avg 1000 feet/sec with 3.8gr of N320 whereas the 124gr Montana Gold JHP with a significantly deeper seating depth of .251 only avg 965 with 3.8gr of N320 and need 4.0gr to break 1000.  I would think that's the result of better obduration by the lead bullet.  It seems the 124gr MG JHP would have just about every velocity advantage there except obduration, so... obduration wins??   I know some people will say that the extra friction of the jacket keeps the bullet from getting to as high a velocity as the coated lead, but that's the opposite of what happens.  I know from researching various low friction coatings like moly or hexa-Boron Nitride used by the benchrest guys that the low friction coatings actually reduce velocity, and people that have a load developed with a copper jacketed bullet who add moly or hBN to the bullets they already use, they have to increase charge weight to get back to the original velocity.  The reason is that the reduced resistance of the coated bullets at the beginning of the burn allows faster initial acceleration, which expands the combustion chamber more rapidly, and results in lower overall pressure.  Basically, the gain you get in acceleration from less resistance is out-weighed by the pressure loss of the faster expanding combustion chamber.

So, James, I'd guess better obduration and less escaped gas.  Your best guess?

ID,

Sorry it took so long to reply.  Had a death in the family.

I think you're on the right track.  I've tried to research this for the past day and can't find a definitive answer to the cast vs jacketed situation.  You're remarks about Moly and HBN mimic what I have read about them.  I have no personal experience with either. 

As far as lead goes, I'm absolutely certain that obduration is the key.  You know I'm a proponent of filling the throat and an alloy of reasonable hardness.  With a softer alloy, the base of the bullet can expand to fit the barrel.  What happens is the base of the bullet starts acceleration before the nose does.  Think of it as a "pancaking" affect.  A hard alloy resists this deformation, hence needs to be of larger diameter to fill the throat off the get go.  It also doesn't "bite" the rifling as well as the softer alloy.  This is why many people have issues with commerial cast bullets and leading.  If the alloy is too hard and the bullet is undersized, it doesn't obdurate well off the get go and can skid on the rifling before fully obdurating.  This gies you had leading in the first few inches of the barrel and then none in the last part.  Continued shooting in this situation extends the leading farther down the barrel as more lead is deposited on each subsequent shot and accuracy deteriorates.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2015, 10:44:32 AM »
Sorry to hear about the loss, James.


Thanks for the reply.  A couple years ago, obturation was one of those things in shooting where I knew what it was, but I didn't really see it as playing too big a role, and bullet to barrel fit was barely a thought.  Over the last six months, obturation keeps popping up in different ways, and the more I look at it, the more important it gets.  I saw your "fit is king" comment earlier in the thread and thought "Yeah, I'm finally starting to figure some of this out."  ;)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 09:11:49 AM by IDescribe »

Offline IDescribe

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2015, 12:10:21 PM »

Which velocity would you guess just works out to 100 yds? Or more?

My thoughts are running along the lines of the 1200 fps range for longer range stability with a 115 gr bullet.


You're in luck!  ;)   I don't know the real answer to your question.  But the powder and bullet combo you're using makes that unnecessary.

According to Hornady's ballistic data, a 115gr HAP doing 1155 at the muzzle will be doing 958 at 100 yards. While I can't tell you the actual velocity floor you're asking for, I can tell you that with the twist rate of a CZ, 958 feet/sec definitely produces enough RPMs to keep the bullet stabilized. 

While it's not the same bullet, the same Hornady data has data for 115gr FTX at 1135 at the muzzle and 949 at 100 yards.  949 is also more than fast enough.   I am confident the HAP would be close enough to call it the same for our purposes, so 1135 at the muzzle is good, as well. 

Finally, I'm pretty sure I've seen video of Joe L producing impressive groups at 100 yards at muzzle velocities significantly slower than 1135, so 1135 should give you a nice cushion.

So why are you in luck?  With CFE Pistol, you're going to be at 1135 or higher just about anywhere other than your starting load anyway, so you don't have to worry about it.  Run your ladder, find your accuracy load at 25, and that's probably going to be your accuracy load at 100 yards as well. ;)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 02:58:31 PM by IDescribe »

Offline IDescribe

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2015, 03:08:01 PM »
I'll also add that while you're .2gr ladder increment is fine for general load development where you're evaluating velocity, after you see what you get, you might want to do the next ladder in .1gr increments.  If you get one of those loads to appear more accurate than the others, build another ladder for accuracy evaluation that includes three steps:  your charge weight that produced the best accuracy in the first test, then one .1gr down, and another .1gr up.  And load up a bunch of each to shoot groups.  If you have two charge weights from the initial test that seem to be about the same, then do a 5 step in .1gr increments that spans both.  And I'd still do that at 25 yards.  No reason to move to 100 until you get things dialed in at 25. 

Offline copemech

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2015, 12:23:30 AM »
I'll also add that while you're .2gr ladder increment is fine for general load development where you're evaluating velocity, after you see what you get, you might want to do the next ladder in .1gr increments.  If you get one of those loads to appear more accurate than the others, build another ladder for accuracy evaluation that includes three steps:  your charge weight that produced the best accuracy in the first test, then one .1gr down, and another .1gr up.  And load up a bunch of each to shoot groups.  If you have two charge weights from the initial test that seem to be about the same, then do a 5 step in .1gr increments that spans both.  And I'd still do that at 25 yards.  No reason to move to 100 until you get things dialed in at 25.

Yes, I totally agree and that is my plan. That batch is mostly all going to be in a range that is twisted up pretty well, and if I find a difference in accuracy I may be lucky.

Joe L. is running the Atlanta Arms, cannot recall exactly which one, but looking at their website on their premium ammo running 115 XTP it says:

Using a high quality match bullet, this is designed for extreme accuracy at 50 yards. This ammo is the PPC match ammo used by all of Homeland Security pistol teams including all of the Border Patrol Teams, as well as some of the best police teams. This is also a great Bianchi Cup and Steel Challenge round averaging 1100 FPS. Our accuracy test requirement is 5 ten-shot groups at 50 yards, with an average group size not to exceed 1.25 inches.

I feel soooo reassured already this stuff should almost find the same hole like a laser guided rocket if I can just manage to kickstart it!

I do not have any to compare, but I do have some Freedom 124 XTP to compare.

All point being, I may not need to run them all that fast as long as stability will hold at distance.

Thanks again for your input. Hopefully I can get out this weekend and blow some stuff off.

Offline copemech

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2015, 12:38:44 AM »
Finally made it to range for testing. Preferred range still shut due to flooding, the alt. does not allow sandbags on pistol range so a 4x4 in carpet had to do, not the greatest rest! That dot can move a lot at 25!

I warmed up a bit with some Perfecta from Wallyworld! Couple of fliers but about ten of fifteen rounds wore a 1.5 in the target! Ok then!

I ran some of my Xtreme 124 and 4.0 gr titegroup along with the other stuff just to compare, but long story made short, everything ran into about 3.0 in. groups with one exception.

The 115 HAP over 5.9 gr of CFE did three groups of 5 rounds at 2 inches with one flier I think.

Oh well, maybe I will work around that to see what happens. It is a bit on the hot side based upon the chromo numbers from ID, but more testing is due.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2015, 10:08:54 AM »
great info .... now to wrap my head around it........


The first step is to roll out your head until it's about 1/2 inch thick. Then use a spatula to gently lift the head....

 ;D
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline copemech

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2015, 12:41:49 AM »
Well, continuing the process, and since I got the best groups at 5.9 gr CFE, the new ladder will be (is) :

5.8
5.9
6.0

It's get'n hot in Texas! O0

Offline IDescribe

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2015, 02:15:03 PM »
And after finally fixing my P-09, I decided to get it into the chrono rotation. ;)

Pistol:         CZ P-09 Cajunized
Bullet:         Missouri Bullet Company 125gr SWC
Powder:      CFE Pistol
Primers:      Federal SPP
Brass:         Federal -- Used (all my Starline is dirty)
OAL:           1.066

Final number is the increase in velocity from the previous charge weight.
 
4.4gr      Avg fps - 1060  fps | SD-15  | ES-53
4.5gr      Avg fps - 1077  fps | SD-14  | ES-32  | +17
4.6gr      Avg fps - 1084  fps | SD-11  | ES-30  | +7
4.7gr      Avg fps - 1119  fps | SD-9    | ES-20  | +34

These were 5 shot strings, so the averages are a little suspect.  For the 4.6gr string, the first two shots were well under the other 3, and I suspect that string should be coming in in the 1090's.  This was just a preliminary to see where the loads fell.  I'm going to load 50 @ 4.6 and 50 @ 4.7 for accuracy testing.  Would like these at 1100.  Accuracy at 15 yards was quite good.  We'll see what happens at 25.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 03:09:28 PM by IDescribe »

Offline copemech

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2015, 11:26:59 PM »
I am starting to think 1100 fps or better is the range for 124-5 gr bullets, and 1105-1200 range for the 115 gr.

I ran into some serious problems trying to break in the TP9 on the cheap Perfecta 115 running 1050. It is a stiff gun, not unlike a P-07, and it did not want to function well at all. It did run well on WWB the next day. Not sure what they chrono at.

Seems I now need to re- do my load accuracy tests with the 115 Hap and CFE. Seems the higher loads were just a bit too much at over 1300 fps.

Does anyone know what velocity the defense ammo is running without going +P? or with? Stuff like Critical Defense and Critical Duty?

Offline jameslovesjammie

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2015, 08:53:34 AM »
Does anyone know what velocity the defense ammo is running without going +P? or with? Stuff like Critical Defense and Critical Duty?

Factory specs for the 115 Critical Defense is 1140 and the 135 grain Critical Duty is 1010.  Chrono velocity on the Defense is usually pretty close, withing 20 fps or so.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: CFE Pistol Load Data
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2015, 09:43:08 AM »
Copemech, if you got to Midway USA, most of the commercially produced ammo they sell will have the predicted velocity in the description, and it should be close.