Author Topic: Bren system Ramblings  (Read 2471 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline z00mie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Bren system Ramblings
« on: November 14, 2015, 01:38:59 PM »
I was thinking about the Bren 805 weapon system and CZ's work on/consideration of, caliber conversions etc. and thought to myself, this rifle should be a gold mine for CZ! Different caliber kits, accessories, different trigger groups, different barrel lengths, proprietary mag systems, all manner of tacticool stuff AND NOT AN AR15!!! The list goes on and on.  Money, money, money!
They (CZ), are also working on the 922 parts to be able to convert the 805 to a Short Barrel Rifle. (CZ hasn't yet produced a BATFE letter indicating 922(r) applies to their Short Barrel Rifles, yet,) this is important as my understanding of the regs never led me to believe that a NFA item like an SBR (determined non-sporting by definition within the NFA) would have to meet the regulatory guidance for importability (after all, it is already imported legally, and in this case a pistol, 922 doesn't apply). It cannot be  both non-sporting and sporting simultaneously, or domestic and non domestic simultaneously. If sporting, then import them ALL as pistols add domestic parts in the US, install a rifle length barrel and voil?! Rifle and legal! CZ could then sell ALOT of rifles! If they are Non sporting by virtue of battle rifle attributes and later barrel length and NFA registration, then no domestic parts would be required. If they are required, then virtually every NFA firearm created from a non-domestic weapon placed in the NFA registry post 922(r) would have to be brought into compliance also, As none would likely meet the standard.
 Some say that 922 is purely an importability reg. Me? I don't know.  If an import reg only, the end user could conceivably configure a weapon to whatever they chose after purchase (accept title II/NFA, pre tax) If not, I think you could only SBR/add a registered sear, to domestic firearms as it would make them "unsporting/922 non-compliant". Sporty, ain't it?
 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 02:47:04 PM by z00mie »

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18808
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2015, 03:15:06 PM »
Quote
(CZ hasn't yet produced a BATFE letter indicating 922(r) applies to their Short Barrel Rifles, yet,)
I contacted them directly and it's the legal division that says no on releasing the letter. I have spoken to individuals who have read it, individuals I trust.
922(r) does not apply to pistols, very true, but it DOES apply to rifles, and when you convert the Scorpion or BREN 805 to a short barreled RIFLE, well, that's when ATFE gets involved. Is it right? Not a chance - the whole NFA '34 and GCA '68 should be scrapped, but good luck on that one. maybe in the future, but right now, no hope.
Your only hope is to get a letter directly to you stating that your BREN 805 may be converted to an SBR without 922(r) parts installed, and then do the one thing that all of those SIG Brace owners couldn't do - SHUT UP. Keep that letter with you, as opinion letters only apply to that particular firearm, and if too many people get wind of that...and start bragging about "getting around " 922(r) like they bragged about getting around NFA '34 with the Brace, then you will see an official opinion that invalidates your letter, makes your firearm illegal and subject to seizure...oddly enough, they will know exactly where it is.

See where I'm going on this one? If ATFE isn't held back legally, they WILL get their pound of flesh, as no federal agency wants to be cheated of tax dollars it thinks it should have, i.e., your money. I have dealt with federal agencies for years, and never, ever underestimate what they will do if they feel they can get away with it.

BTW, I can sympathize - I held the 14" BREN 805 at SHOT, and it fit like a glove, loved it.

Offline z00mie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2015, 07:41:59 PM »
Armoredman,
I've already completed my forms, got my FP cards and pics. As soon as I can get my serial number and a signature, I'll be sending off my Form 1's with Uncle Sugars share.  The crux of my rambling is really about the ambiguity of the interpretation on these matters (sporting/Non-sporting, domestic/non-domestic) and how that effects the end user.  I have a number of NFA/title II firearms so I know the drill and play by the rules. It is just frustrating to watch any federal entity make policy that will ultimately not only trip up those it is designed to inform, but those who made the policy! As a 30 year military guy and a former DOD civilian, I struggle to believe  that some organizations can manage to survive even the most superficial IG type scrutiny or a half hearted internal audit.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 07:49:36 PM by z00mie »

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18808
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2015, 08:53:31 PM »
Of course they wouldn't which is why such a review will never occur. We are left with having to do what we can to stay on the right side of the razor wire. :)

Offline z00mie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 07:43:20 AM »
Hear, hear!

Offline pedro66

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2015, 10:54:21 PM »
CZ has to be the first manufacturer that has ever got that in black and white from the ATF well done them,

However the story I got from a good contact at CZ is that they had there pants in the wringer over 922r way before the kit was ever discussed, So when the sales guys asked about selling stocks the legal department got way out of shape.

There are those that think when the lawyers contacted the ATF that the question may not of been asked in the correct way.

For example which of these was asked

"If we convert a pistol to a rife should it be 922r compliant?"

or

"If we convert a pistol to a NFA item should it be 922r compliant?"

Most people in the trade feel there are two different answers to those two different questions

It would be far more interesting to read the letter that CZ sent to the ATF although the ATF usually quotes the question in any reply


Guess this is what happens when bean counters and lawyers run a gun company
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 11:37:19 PM by pedro66 »

Offline dirtyharriet

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 05:32:49 AM »
I've already picked up a Bren 805 and love it. I am however waiting to see if anyone will offer 922R parts or kits before I file a form 1 for it. I really love the factory stock look and I sure hope that CZ will go the way of the Scorpion and sell 922R kits for these as well. I just don't see the interest in the Bren 805 that the Scorpion has generated so far which is very disappointing. I fear that CZ will not come out with a 922R stock kit for the Bren 805 due to perceived lack of interest. Only time will tell if I give up on waiting and trade this pistol for some other market offering.

Offline z00mie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 08:54:17 AM »
I think I saw the list of parts (exploded view) that CZ had coordinated with the BATFE for the purpose of 922 compliance? Some of the parts would seem to be reasonably easy to fabricate and/or modify from existing US parts to meet the standards. Maybe it was the Scorpion's list I saw? I suspect that once a few SBR rifles are registered, and are seen/passed around at the local range, momentum will build and the Bren will be a hot commodity.

Offline pedro66

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 02:56:09 PM »
The EVO kit does not have a 922r stock its still an imported part the Bren will most likely be the same much easier parts to make

You could also go with the 922r doesn't apply to NFA like the rest of the industry but I will go to hell for saying that

Offline brad8e

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2015, 08:51:44 AM »
I think what is shooting the bren 805 in the foot is the current price point, the evo 3 is so much cheaper and built for an sbr. The bren 805 in my eyes needs to be a full length rifle. I'm sure I don't speak for everyone but this weapon doesn't appeal as much to me as an sbr or pistol. Until a full length rifle comes available I'm afraid I will be holding off on the bren 805. Pretty much why I purchased the Evo 3.

The bren has so much potential and that's whats sad.

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18808
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2015, 01:47:27 PM »
Quote
Guess this is what happens when bean counters and lawyers run a gun company
I've met Alice - have you? She is no bean counter. The company known as CZ-USA is a wholly owned subsidiary of CZ-UB, a company based in the Czech Republic - please keep that in mind. Decisions of legalities are not made in a vacuum. What did the letter say? I don't know and they are exercising the right not to release it. Same thing when Bill Ruger said no magazines over 5 rounds would ever be sold to civilians for the Mini-14 rifle, his decision, and we lived with it or found alternatives.

Offline z00mie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2015, 12:40:40 PM »
I don't think the 800 series weapon system is diminished by being first put out as a pistol. After seeing a photo of an apparent 18" Bren rifle used for deer hunting by a CZ staff member I think it is likely that the development/inflow will continue with barrel configurations as well as calibers and magazine options. The thing to remember is that nothing when dealing with the feds happens quickly (unless it's bad). Hold tight. They (CZ) will continue trudging thru the mire that is federal law bringing innovative stuff.

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18808
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2015, 10:21:58 PM »
Not to mention the experiment beng done at CZ-USA in making a 6.5mm BREN...that is VERY cool!

Offline z00mie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2015, 11:13:37 AM »
It is refreshing to see a company like CZ listening. I at one point also really liked HK products (back in their roller locked days) but got tired of them taking the common US gun owner for granted. I would not be distressed if HK folded (instead of being bailed out as has occurred recently).  On the other hand, it seems CZ is innovating and attempting to get those innovations in our hands. FN is another Co. I like. They too make no bones about their priorities though. Mil contracts first, LE, then lowly old us, the civilian.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3722
Re: Bren system Ramblings
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2015, 03:21:12 AM »
I think FN was limited in not being able to sell to civilians for the M4/AR15s at least...  Believe it had something to do w/ FN building to the specs provided by Colt, and since FN and Colt are competitors, the Gov't required FN and other M4 gov't suppliers to not sell to consumers/compete w/ Colt on the consumer side.  Obviously, FN is now selling AR15s to consumers so don't know what changed, but something apparently did...

Just did a quick search.  TFB says this:
Quote
Due to legal restrictions and contractual requirements, the rifle you see here as the FN 15 is a completely different beast than the military version, made on different machines that just happen to be in the same vicinity of the company?s M16 manufacturing.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/tyler-kee/gun-review-fnh-usa-fn-15-rifle/