Author Topic: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?  (Read 13392 times)

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Offline romukom

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2015, 01:44:03 PM »
Thanks for the instructions in how to make your own baffles.  If I get some time around I might do an experiment to see how it does at full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 and almost empty hopper.


Without the baffle, the charges should get lighter as the hopper level goes down. You'd want to use a good-metering powder like W231 for this experiment.

I wish that I can find some W231/ HP-38 locally.  :(
Right now I have been collecting/ stocking/  ;D  powders from my local supplier since I have yet find the powder that I like (I have only tested WSF and AA#7).  So far I have WSF, AA#7, AA#5, CFE Pistol, Universal, Titegroup, BE-86 and VV N320. Is any of these similar in shape as the W231?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 01:53:35 PM by romukom »

Offline 1SOW

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2015, 03:11:24 PM »
The AA#5 is a super fine particle powder--less than half of the 231 size.  n320 is a small rod powder that measures very well even though slightly bigger than 231 size. 
I'd try the n320 for minor power factor loads.  A Mid-range load/4.0 grains under a 124/125 gr  bullet will get you there with various oals depending on nose shape.

Offline motosapiens

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2015, 01:07:25 PM »
I've loaded 1000 or so rounds with the auto-drum. I was having trouble with my auto-disk getting some bridging/light loads using 3.0 grains of red dot (never had that problem with larger loads, it only started up when I switched to 147gr bullets). 

In my experience, the auto-drum at $35.99 totally solved that problem. I'm getting extremely consistent load weights. I have yet to weigh one that came in at either 2.9 or 3.1. Every one I've pulled has been 3.0, and the 4 or 5 drop averages  that I tested initially have been spot-on as well.

I never really let the powder go below half full just because it's part of my rhythm to refill the powder every other time I refill the primer tube.

Offline IPSick

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2015, 01:15:05 PM »
I have it, and love it.  It's so accurate, I started only checking 1 in every 100 throws for accuracy.  Dead nuts.  This thing is awesome.

Offline Old Rocket

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2015, 07:09:06 PM »
Titanreloading.com
They sell a powder baffle specific for round lee hoppers done 3d printer. They are making some net stuff with the 3d printer limited  to one per person.
Some of the best prices shipped really fast for Lee and other reloading stuff.
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Offline copemech

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2016, 12:50:29 AM »
I just got my adjustable disk working well. Scrap it. And start over!

Offline tcook

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2016, 02:47:57 PM »
As far as a baffle is concerned, my limited experience so far with the Auto Drum shows it's not necessary. The powder goes from the hopper into the body of the die, which is kind of a "sub-hopper", then into the drum cavity. About 10 to 15 charges-worth of powder (depending on powder and target charge) is held in the body, acting as sort of a "built-in" baffle.

Offline IPSick

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2016, 03:44:01 PM »
there is a little key on the side that lets you adjust the throw.  it is insanely easy to adjust.  it holds true through hundreds of rounds.  I'll double check the throw every 20 or so, and its dead on.

its an amazing little machine.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2016, 09:35:38 AM »
it holds true through hundreds of rounds.  I'll double check the throw every 20 or so, and its dead on.


IMHO... once you have verified that the powder measure is stable in its ability to dispense power drops within your allotted limits AND run enough powder (and/or graphite lubricant) through the measure to insure its continued operation within these limits, then you are at risk of actually introducing GREATER variations (e.g. empty shell casings leading to Squib loads) by stopping the process.

If you need to verify the PM to become part of your process, then drop 50 loads and weigh them, and enter that data into an Excel spreadsheet for analysis, plotting, whatever. The reloading process is sacred. When you break the process to stop and measure, you introduce the 'human element'. This human intervention is your single largest source of error.

You may say, "Oh, but stopping to measure is part of my process" to which I will strongly disagree. Let the machine do its thing without interruption. Why? Because the machines don't stop and answer the phone, have memory lapses, or have to stop and take out the garbage like humans do.

Secondly, I say this because one data point does not make a graph. Say for instance, you are set to drop 5.0 grns. You load 20, stop the process, and measure 4.92 grns on drop number 21. The only thing you can do with this knowledge is make a wild a$$ assumption and adjust the PM. What if the drops 1 through 20 were perfect? After the adjustment the remainder of your drops will be at 5.08 grns. How does that help anything ??

What I am telling you is that all powder measures are BY THEIR VERY NATURE averaging machines. Their output will always vary. Learn how much yours will vary before OR after your production run, adjust it accordingly, and then let it do it's thing. The human (that's you) can only screw things up.  ;D

If the PM cannot drop 50 straight loads within your acceptable variation limits, then toss the thing in the garbage. A human cannot make a bad machine "good' through intervention without sampling every piece. At that point you might as well be doing it yourself, and you don't even need the machine.

Capiche ?

its an amazing little machine.


If you truly believe this, then let the PM do its thing.

 ;)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 09:43:44 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline vwpieces

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2016, 12:14:29 PM »
Agree with Wobbly about stopping as this is generally where mistakes happen.
I could go on about the possibilities but the only fact that lead to the mistake was that you stopped & disrupted the routine.
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Offline romukom

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2016, 12:56:42 PM »
For the benefit of all, I am going to prematurely crack open my only bottle of VVN320 to verify if an baffle is needed for the auto drum.  Also I am planning to do the same with AA#7. Based on the pictures I saw online the biggest kernels (for pistol) are from Unique.  I don't have it because I don't want to deal with "hard to meter" powder.  I have an unopened bottle of Universal. As far as I can see, its a little bit smaller than the unique.   I may go ahead and open it to cover most of the shapes from really small ball (AA#7), extruded (N320) and flakes/fattened ball (universal)  Here is my plan that includes good points from Wobbly's post.

1- Set up my Load master with a powder drop die only. 
2- Set up my case feeder with clean brass.  I only have clean .45 ACP with primer.  My 9mm cases are unprimed.
3- Evenly mark the auto drum hopper with Full, Half and Empty



My reasoning for the empty mark where the hopper started to taper, it is more likely to be refilled at this point.  Also if a there a baffle installed, their benefits will be none when the powder reaches at that point.

4- Run the press as normal progressive mode/ speed.  Not fast or slow.  Just the "Load master Lee rhythm " 
5- Instead of seating a bullet, I will be removing each case and set it on an ammo box.  For each powder and level, there will be 10 cases.
6-  Before starting each session, there will be 10 discarded trows.
7-  The powder will be scooped off from the hopper instead of removing the hopper from the system.  The reason is to avoid any influence on the  results.  I heated and bent a plastic spoon to aid the process.
8-  The Auto drum will not be cleaned before this test.  The last time I used my press, the Auto drum performed without any issues.  I don't want to create a potential issue or induce a skewed results.
9- The powder will be weight with Frankford Arsenal Platinum scale and Lee Safety powder beam scale.  Why, just to cover my bases.  Temperature and humidity will be also be recorded.

10-  I am debating if I need to adjust my drum for an specific charge or just trow the charges as it.  I believe that right now it set at 7 or 8 grains of AA#7 when I was loading test load for my brother's 1911.  You see, I don't even remember what was the last charge that was set.  So, for the new guys like me... always, always document.

So, stay tune for results regardless if its good, bad or ugly.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 01:06:00 PM by romukom »

Offline 1SOW

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2016, 03:05:09 PM »
Quote
then you are at risk of actually introducing GREATER variations (e.g. empty shell casings leading to Squib loads) by stopping the process.

AMEN to that brother!

DO have the habit ,of visually seeing the powder drop,  no matter how confident you are with the consistency.  This alone will prevent serious mistakes,  like no powder or two times the powder.  Otherwise it's just a chrono variation that harms nothing.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2016, 11:47:41 AM »
For the benefit of all, I am going to prematurely crack open my only bottle of VVN320 to verify if an baffle is needed for the auto drum. 


What you've planned to do sounds well reasoned and fairly thorough, however I can assure you that the column effect is a physical phenomena and not an illusion. To find your answer you need only test your Full vs. Empty positions, as the effect is bought on by the weight of the powder column. You might also expand your test sample lot from 10 to something like 30.

Just suggestions.  ;)
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Offline romukom

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2016, 04:17:40 PM »
I see.  A larger sample is better.  Ok, Full vs Empty  sounds good.  I might start soon but I need to clear my bench.  I am almost done building my powder storage cabinet.  Hopefully I will have some concrete data by the end of this weekend.

Offline romukom

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Re: LEE Auto-Drum Powder Measure?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2016, 07:12:37 PM »
Alright, it took some time but it was worth it.  My reloading equipment is in my detached ?single? (in 1940?s) car garage or I should say sub-compact in today?s standard.  The test was done in three separate session.   The auto drum setting was not touched since the last time I used the equipment.
But before here is my just finished powder cabinet.  It is nice to have a proper place to store my powder. I can fit 29 Hodgdon style 1 lb. bottles in the top shelf.  I know that it may not take too long when I will have the need to find more space   ;)



Here is my reloading bench.  I followed the steps listed in my last post with the suggestion from Wobbly.  The powder used (in order) for the test were: VV N320, Hodgdon Universal, and Accurate #7. 



All the powders loaded fine with the auto drum.  There were no leakage noticed on the press area.  When switching to a different powder, the content were  emptied back to the container; the hopper and the neck area where cleaned from any residue with compressed air. 
However after switching to the last powder, I noticed in the first sample three flakes of Universal flakes among with AA#7?s powder.   I turned off and removed the hopper.  The neck area were emptied and noticed two Universal flakes stuck in between the wiper and the drum.  The drum was removed for further inspection.





Here are some stuck Universal on the wiper along with some AA#7.  If I left it alone, eventually it will be loaded with AA#7 that in which will degrade its performance.  Other than the powder stuck in the wiper, there were no powders residues in any other areas.  I cleaned it and proceed to cycle the auto drum.  The real source of these flakes were coming from some of the cases. It was noticed that the Universal has a little more clinging properties.



For to ease 1SOW ?s concerns, there were no even leakage issue with #7 after the test was completed.  I proceed to slowly open the drum to see if there are any AA#7 powder stuck.  As you can see there are some powder stuck in the wiper.  There are some powder in the ?no leak grove? (page #9 in the instructions). 
With the aid of gravity, the groove serves as a reservoir for loose grains of powders that find their way between the drum and the powder drop's body.  This is why the cavity was machined as a conical cylinder instead of a traditional cylinder with O-ring commonly found in others rotary powder drop system.   I also noticed a small port in the grove that leads to the powder drop tube.  I believe as loose grains get collected in the ?no leak grove?, the movement of the drum will eventually push some of them into the drop tube.  This action will prevent the ?no leak grove? from overfilling that can result in leaks.



Now here are the results from this test.




Based on the data collected I learned several things:
1.    My Frankford Arsenal Platinum scale has tendency to drift to the lighter side despite that it reads ?0.0? when placing back the pan on the scale.  Compared to the Lee beam scale, it tends to read in the lighter side.  From now on, I will be using my Modified Lee Beam scale.  Going back to my records, I was loading 9.1 grains of AA#7.  Based on this test, I was short a tenth of a grain because I was using my Frankford Arsenal scale.

2.   So for the purpose of data analysis, I am using the results from the Lee Beam scale.  The powders that had almost the same standard deviation were the N320 and Universal.  The AA#7 had the most variation of the standard deviation despite that has the same average.   

3.   To answer the question if a baffle is required when using the auto drum; I can say that it depends on the powder.  Definietely it is needed for super fine ball powder like AA#7 or #5.  I could do another testing if I will get the same result with a baffle installed.  But for now it was an interesting test.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 10:00:00 PM by romukom »

 

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