700x vs Longshot

[Scarlett Pistol]

All I've had since I started reloading during the big run was 700x. I've realized it isn't a crowd favorite, but I had gotten a lot and it lasts a loooooong time. It's a fast burning flake powder and I have wanted to try some other powders since things are becoming more available. I was keeping my eyes out and some sealed 1lb kegs of Longshot showed up on a local classifieds for $20 a piece. I snagged some to test out. Yeah, I know.... I jumped pretty far along the spectrum from fast to slow. I figured I would document some thoughts as I compare these two less used powders. I'll just enter updates as edits in this original post.

3-13:
   Loaded up a bunch of rounds to work up some loads with the Longshot. I have some CCI magnum primers and I also loaded some rounds with those. (keeping to the very bottom of the recommended powder charges for those magnum primers.) When I first opened the canister of powder it looked like a flake powder and I thought I was in for some more sub par metering on my Hornady auto progressive press (like with the 700x.) Once I started setting the charge weights I quickly discovered this stuff metered very very well compared to 700x. 700x basically meters with a +-0.1 grain variance here and there, while binding up the system occasionally. If Longshot was varying while I was setting the charge I just had to adjust my system a little more and it never gave a charge above or below what I wanted. I do have the RCBS powder cop die, and will never remove it, even if the powder is metering perfectly, just a plug for safety.
   I did notice that Longshot jumped around in the cases a bit as the system cycled from station to station. I may need to put some more viscous lubricant under the shell plate. Happy to hear any thoughts or suggestions on that (or anything else I mention.)
   I've read that slow burning powders do well at the upper ends of the powder charges. I'll build all the way up with my normal small pistol primers to test this out. I'm not willing to take such risks with the magnum primers, so you all won't get the entertainment of hearing about crazy things like some people test. Again, feel free to chime in with questions or suggestions, things to look for, look out for, or document. I'm not a beginner in reloading, but I feel far below the wisdom of many on this forum. I humbly share this little undertaking in hopes to spread information, learn some things, and hear great feedback from others.

[IDescribe]

Wobbly did a test a couple of years ago with standard vs magnum primers in 9mm.  The results fell right between diddly and squat.   Pretty sure magnum primers function by propelling little bits of phosphorous forward through the powder, accelerating ignition.  Pistol powders are already VERY fast.  I suspect between that and 9mm's short powder column, there's just not much room for the burn to get any faster.

[nicky]

Long shot was the first powder I was able t get when I first started to reload. Haven't used it for a while but if I recall correctly it was a decent powder. It metered well on my Dillon 550B & shot well. It may turn a lot of heads at the range. It is loud.

I never used it with magnum primers.

[M1A4ME]

I've been using small pistol magnum primers in 9MM and .40 S&W with Blue Dot (compressed powder loads in both rounds because the powder is slow burning and the pressures are 10% below max chamber pressures listed in the reloading manuals/information).

No issues up to this point.

On the other end, I use standard small rifle primers for TAC, H335 and CFE 223.  No issues there either.

[Scarlett Pistol]

Thanks for all the feedback! I'll need to dig up that piece by wobbly. I was loading 2 tenths under max  recommended charge with 700x and switched to magnum primers. Got about 3 or 4 split cases after 200 rounds. The primers were the only difference... Maybe 700x is just too fast for that. Before hand I had read the equivalent of what you mentioned Wobbly found in testing.

Thanks again everyone! I'll finish the loads and hopefully get out this coming weekend so I can share if anything else interesting comes up.

[benq]

Like you I grabbed what powder I could and coincidentally it was both 700-X and Longshot.  I'm about 5 lbs through my 700-X stash and I am quite fond of it because of its very low recoil with 125gr RN.  However it has its obvious drawbacks; poor metering and being dirty.

[Scarlett Pistol]

400 rounds of Longshot:
I've tested loads with magnum and standard small pistol primers. Used less powder with the magnum primers after having some split cases with 700x and magnum primers. Both worked very well.
After having shot 700x for so long I could immediately tell a difference in recoil. In my first outing I was out shooting clay pigeons set up about 20 yards away and the rounds seemed plenty accurate. I shot a friends Kimber 1911 45 acp after about 100 rounds of 9mm Longshot and I didn't seem to notice the 45 acp recoil as much. Maybe that had more to do with me learning to just be focused on the sights and target (and not on recoil), but I did feel like the hotter 9mm rounds helped out with the transition.
On all my outings with the Longshot I have shot my AR with the compensator on it. Loud is relative... but I do keep 2 sets on ears on as well.
Overall I am pretty happy with Longshot so far. I like getting used to a stronger 9mm round with more recoil. It's been accurate (I keep the loads pretty hot so all the powder burns and the rounds are consistent). It's cleaner than 700x, meters better in my press, and I got it for $20 per lb so it wasn't a bad deal. 

Its late enough that I ask for forgiveness if anything needs another round of proof reading. I'll get to it in the morning. I'll do another 100 rounds pretty soon and should have some accuracy testing pics. Around mid may I am heading to St. George UT and I'll try and spend a bunch of time and the cool shooting park they have down there. Maybe even get to shoot a competition or two. I'll use Longshot, so I'll return and report with more feedback as I use up this powder.

[Wobbly]

I was loading 2 tenths under max  recommended charge with 700x and switched to magnum primers. Got about 3 or 4 split cases after 200 rounds. The primers were the only difference...

Don't forget you also cold worked the brass several times too. If you used Lee sizing dies, then you really really gave the brass a workout. Lee sizing dies work, but they torture the brass compared to other dies.

I don't think I've had a single piece of brass spit out since I stopped using Lee dies.

 

[Scarlett Pistol]

This is great to hear wobbly! I have Lee and Hornady dies. The only Lee die I'm still using is the depriming and sizing die. I'll immediately switch to my Hornady die now.
There's a lot more resistance with my Hornady resizing die compared to the Lee. Does it just need some break in? And what makes the Lee dies so much harder on 9mm brass? Thanks again for sharing Wobbly!

[IDescribe]

There's no doubt Lee dies can be used successfully -- plenty of good reloaders use them --  but every time on this board or Benos that someone is having problems with finished ammo, I know before they say what brand dies they're using.    That could just be numbers -- the fact that so many new reloaders choose Lee, but I can't remember the last time someone was having a tough time with their Redding or Hornady dies.  And I see plenty where an experienced reloader switches bullets, and now suddenly their ammo isn't coming out right.  Usually it looks to me like the FCD is the offending die, but not always.

[Scarlett Pistol]

  Don't forget you also cold worked the brass several times too

Since Wobbly mentioned "cold worked" that raised a question for you experienced reloaders. If I hit my brass w a blow dryer and just raised the temp to maybe 90 degrees, so it's warm like a summer day (but still safe) would that make it last longer and be easier to reload? I know too much heat would be unsafe and not good for the brass (as in a bake it in the oven). I'm just thinking warm. Thoughts? Anyone test this?

[IDescribe]

No reason to.  Brass is plentiful and free. 

[Wobbly]

And what makes the Lee dies so much harder on 9mm brass?

Lee seems to take the less expensive method of using a straight piece of carbide to size the tapered 9mm brass. This leads to the "coke bottle" or "wasp waist" look on the finished cartridge.

Hornady and others use a tapered carbide sleeve that restores the tapered exterior to the 9mm. It's more costly to build, but the results are better.

I'm not knocking Lee, their dies contain a lot of really good design, especially the decapping pin location device. For anyone getting started, Lee is definitely the way to go.

If the going is tough, try case lube.

Since Wobbly mentioned "cold worked" that raised a question for you experienced reloaders. If I hit my brass w a blow dryer and just raised the temp to maybe 90 degrees, so it's warm like a summer day (but still safe) would that make it last longer and be easier to reload?

You'd need to get it high enough to anneal the brass, and a hair dryer won't have that much heat. Besides you'd be right back to the "oven problem" by annealing the whole piece of brass. You only need the mouth soft, the rim area needs to remain hardened.

[Scarlett Pistol]

800 rounds of Longshot:
    100 at an indoor range with a friend. 165 in my first USPSA Match. 35 sighting in my SP-01. 100 in outdoor practice at Southern Utah Practical Shooting Range.
    Thoughts from the indoor range. Loud and much hotter than 700x.
    Thoughts from first match, used the magnum primers and was three grains below max load for 124 gr bullets. The recoil definitely has some feel to it. I was only surprised by it in my first stage when I didn't grip hard enough (I have those super aggressive CZ Custom thin aluminum grips, wonderful as long as you don't loosen your grip so they can move/grate your hand). I was focused on seeing my sights on targets and thus didn't notice anything further. Accuracy is not a problem. While I wasn't testing from a rest, as long as I did my part I hit exactly where I was aiming. No tumbling or inconsistencies from the powder in groups.
    Range practice with the SP-01. Same load I used in my match, just 2 grains below max load. I have a 14lb recoil spring from CGW in this pistol, and the brass was flying about 8 to 10 feet away.  While I have learned to focus on things other than recoil as I shoot the recoil isn't an issue for me anymore, but I still realize this load has more of it than I've felt from any other 9mm rounds. I had 30 rounds of 700x again. Loaded 1 grain below max so if I get chronographed I'll meet requirements for USPSA. The brass flew 4 feet or so away from my position. There was really no recoil from the 700x. The stuff is a dirty powder, no way around it....
    Since I went back to 700x here's a few things I noticed while reloading. First, it meters less accurately. Not the end of the world since my powder drop still stays within +-0.1 grains and is right on 90% of the time. For my use I'll take it, but bullseye shooters would probably want more consistent drops. Second, it does bind up in my drop here and there. Like a flake gets stuck then crunched. It's not pleasant but doesn't cause any issues. For how cheap it is and how many rounds I get per keg and how soft the recoil is this stuff is pretty good. Sure I would love a powder that's cleaner and measures better. But will I get 15,000+ rounds out of an 8lb keg with 115gr bullets? And I can find it locally on sale for $159... It definitely fills a role.
    Since I'm writing in more of a rolling thoughts approach. I just remembered something. I did notice something new with the Longshot when I was down south at the range this week. About 1/3 of the side, and half way down the outside of the brass was very dirty, almost like it was burned. I didn't see that when I shot these rounds through my 75 Compact at my first match, just this time around in my SP-01. I did switch to a Hornady die for sizing, but that was impacting the brass in both the match and range practice. This wasn't happening to the brass from the 700x rounds, which also had been sized in the Hornady die. Any thoughts?
    Anyways, hope these help a little and please post thoughts, comments, questions, and so forth.

[Wobbly]

Since I went back to 700x here's a few things I noticed while reloading. First, it meters less accurately. Not the end of the world since my powder drop still stays within +-0.01 grains and is right on 90% of the time. For my use I'll take it, but bullseye shooters would probably want more consistent drops.

I very much doubt that. Check your numbers again.

Since I'm writing in more of a rolling thoughts approach. I just remembered something. I did notice something new with the Longshot when I was down south at the range this week. About 1/3 of the side, and half way down the outside of the brass was very dirty, almost like it was burned. I didn't see that when I shot these rounds through my 75 Compact at my first match, just this time around in my SP-01. I did switch to a Hornady die for sizing, but that was impacting the brass in both the match and range practice. This wasn't happening to the brass from the 700x rounds, which also had been sized in the Hornady die. Any thoughts?

You load is not creating enough chamber pressure to seal the cartridge.