CSA VZ58: Bolt galling on receiver rails (Rob Ski would not be happy)

[luckyduck]

Hi folks! I'm new to the forums.

I have a D-Technik VZ58. I just recently purchased it and so far I'm really enjoying shooting it.

However, I've noticed one glaring problem after about 100 rounds: the bolt seems to have developed a divet and is galling on the receiver rails.

I've attached a few pictures for you all to see. But it looks like the bolt itself is wearing into the rails at a undue rate.

Any thoughts on what I should do and what is ultimately causing this?

One theory I have is that since mine is a California model I often will cycle the bolt back out of battery without any rounds in the magazine (and the magazine is currently fixed, so it cannot be removed for the time building). I'm thinking that the little bolt hold open catch has banged enough times on the bolt to create the divot which is now galling the receiver rails. What I can't believe is that the alloy of the bolt is actually wearing on the steel of the receiver.

Anyways, take a look at the pictures and tell me what you think.

Thanks!

[TJNewton]

Normal.  Some will do it more than others.  The parts are meshing together and the marks should stop advancing. 

I was also alarmed when I saw those marks on my VZ2008's.  Looking at pic after pic of VZ2000's, VZ2008's, and even demilled original Czechoslovakian VZ58 receivers, I realized that they all do this.  Since these rifles are built on new receivers from old kits, and old kits came from different years, regions, designs, and factories, parts will wear differently from rifle to rifle.  On my first VZ2008 the dust cover had been pinched together at some point and then straightened, leaving the right side slightly higher than the left.  This caused the marks to be deeper on the left.  I've since replaced the dust cover with a better one.  No problems at all with that rifle. 

Date those pictures, make note of round count, then revisit them a thousand or so rounds in the future.  I think you'll be satisfied.

Some reference material:

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63558.0

http://www.sigarms556.com/threads/sheering-marks-gouging-peening.10509/

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?314671-Help!-Czech-Vz58-problem

[luckyduck]

Thanks for the insight.

I think I solved my mystery a bit more. What I thought was galling of the steel inner rails (is that the right terminology?) was actually particles of aluminum being smeared onto the rails. I realized this once I compared the wear on the rails that showed steel (dull brown/grey color) versus the wear on the right sight that is bright and silver. Has to be aluminum.

Plus, there's no way that aluminum would wear out steel. It's always the other way around. Right?

So, overall. Because my CA legal VZ has a magazine lock on it, I end up racking the bolt back quite often without there being any rounds in the magazine. This banks the bottom corners of the right side of the bolt and locking block against the bolt hold open stop causing some deformation. When this deformation becomes pronounced, in then grinds itself into the steel rail after multiple firings leaving behind a shiny patina.

I'm going to focus on getting rid of the permanent magazine lock and running this gun featureless so I don't have to worry about this problem anymore (if it is really a problem).

[Franz Maurer]

I'm going to focus on getting rid of the permanent magazine lock and running this gun featureless so I don't have to worry about this problem anymore (if it is really a problem).

So what are you going to do for the pistol grip (the evilest kalifornia feature) ??
are you going to just run without it or make a custom one without the thumb/web of hand  wrap around ability ?
or are you thinking kydex wrap ; Monster-man or what ?

[zmr]

would this work?

http://www.zahal.org/products/vz-58-tactical-skeleton-stock-with-sling-swivel?path_parent=219005

[Franz Maurer]

would this work?

http://www.zahal.org/products/vz-58-tactical-skeleton-stock-with-sling-swivel?path_parent=219005

you mean as cali featureless  ?
NO
that is a thumbhole stock
If you restore your mag release and have this stock you' re an instant  felon with an assault weapon
Welcome to cali logic

[RSR]

I always thought the kydex slip on grips beat the mag locks, but ymmv...

[Franz Maurer]

I always thought the kydex slip on grips beat the mag locks, but ymmv...

Well, the kydex wrap has not been to court yet so somebody's going to be the first, you just know it.
Following the intent of the laws notwithstanding.

Besides, the problem with it from the get-go seems that it does nothing for the : "not substantially protruding below the trigger guard" -part- or some such (quoting from memory)

As a fun note someone suggested using the folding (!) pistol grip ( yes, it does exist)
People scratched their heads in amazement but quickly rejected the notion based on "lack of permanence"

Perhaps this subject deserves its own thread...

... and Rob Ski is a secret fan of the msbs

[RSR]

Well, the kydex wrap has not been to court yet so somebody's going to be the first, you just know it.

*I live in TX, so by no means an an expert on CA laws...

[luckyduck]

I have the skeleton stock on my VZ and what I did was put the belt retention plate from a old SERPA holster in the hold and then tied it up with boxing hand wrap. Not perfect.

I think what I will be doing is figuring out a more clean way of blocking the hole which would probably by some form of kydex insert.

Otherwise, I was thinking of just going with a polymer buttstock and then sending a VZ58 grip to a kydex grip wrap maker to have it made.

[JohnEd]

All that stuff about "normal' is another way of saying "common".  I reasoned that there is actually a problem and only some of it can be dealt with.  Firstly, the loads in this wear area are sufficient that "grease" is called for and light oil won't do.  But grease collects dust and grit and that isn't good for a combat situation.  Ummm, lets see, none of us is in that mode so grease it is in mine.  Anyone want to argue that grease wears less?

The wear patter is made by the loading caused by the bolt and carrier changing direction so abruptly.  It is supposed to change direction by having it's rearward motion arrested by the recoil spring and striker spring.  If it being driven back so hard and so far that it is impacting the Dust Cover that is bad and will accelerate wear.  Stuff isn't supposed to banging into stuff unless it is bolt into battery and look at the wear area that section has.  Ever heard of a bolt wearing out the barrel from hitting it?  Pull the bolt all the way back to the rear and note where the cocking handle stops.  Put your finger on the spot and fire a round.....the handle should not come back far enough to touch your finger as the recoil spring should arrest it's rearward motion.  Not the Dust Cover being smashed.  Maybe you could use a piece of tape instead of your finger.

If your Carrier is hitting the Dust Cover when the gun cycles you will need to reduce the gassing.

There is a clearance between the Bolt and the rails.  If that is too great the bolt will rattle when it stops and that will accelerate wear.  This is a tolerance in a combat weapon that is supposed to work when filthy.

[JohnEd]

Any "silver metal' you find in your receiver is from the hard chrome alloy Bolt rubbing on the rails.  Get a jewlers loop and find out where that metal is coming from.  That is NOT NORMAL.  Not in my experience.  Maybe some small amt associated with the first few rounds fired but there should not be ground metal of any sort being deposited inside the receiver.

There is no aluminum parts inside the receiver.  The mags are aluminum but you should see any area where metal is being ground from them....even if they are fixed in the gun.

Pay attention to those cautions about modifying a California gun.  Ruby Ridge was started when Randy cut just a few inches off of a shotgun for an undercover BATF agent that suckered him.  None of those laws are worth breaking.

Best of wishes,

John

[RSR]

All that stuff about "normal' is another way of saying "common".  I reasoned that there is actually a problem and only some of it can be dealt with.  Firstly, the loads in this wear area are sufficient that "grease" is called for and light oil won't do.  But grease collects dust and grit and that isn't good for a combat situation.  Ummm, lets see, none of us is in that mode so grease it is in mine.  Anyone want to argue that grease wears less?

My preferred grease: https://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewg.php

Extreme Weapons Grease Description
Slip 2000 Synthetic Grease is our Extreme Weapons Lubricant turned into a light grease.

(EWG) Extreme Weapons Grease offers extreme pressure properties that are guaranteed to reduce friction and wear on those extreme weapons. This product contains a proprietary Anti-wear package that is easy to use and long lasting. Will not attract dust, dirt or powder fouling like most petroleum based products.

Excellent for use on all semi-auto and full auto locking lugs, sears, bolts and slides/rails. Smooth clean operation in the extreme cold -100?F and will hold up under the extreme heat +750?F as well.

Does not contain Teflon or PTFE additives.

Features


?Easy to apply and stays there
?Forms a bond with the steel parts
?Reduces friction and wear
?Does not migrate
?Will not attract dust and dirt
?Does not contain Teflon or PTFE additives

[RSR]

Pay attention to those cautions about modifying a California gun.  Ruby Ridge was started when Randy cut just a few inches off of a shotgun for an undercover BATF agent that suckered him.  None of those laws are worth breaking.

Best of wishes,

John

I always heard the actual amount of the infraction/too short was 1/4" (realize that's not what you're saying JE, but just for clarity)...  And Weaver apparently also only shortened barrels, he never installed them on a shotgun -- so if they were installed on a shotgun w/ just a pistol grip, the barrels would have been legal...
The whole thing appears to have stemmed from the FBI wanting Weaver to spy on his white supremacist cohort and Weaver refusing -- again to weapons charges generally stemming from other screwups. 
However, YMMV.

Regardless, the importance of keeping ducks in a row is sage advice -- in the event you trip up, or (happening all to frequently) cops accidently raid the wrong house and to avoid making themselves look like buffoons, dig until they can find something, assuming they don't shoot you upon entry...

[JohnEd]

Thanks RSR.  I am so infrequently "SAGE".  If ever.

Not getting shot is a huge assumption.  Last three shootings i recall from around here was of Desert Storm vets in full PTS mode and armed with a knife or a hammer.  Nine bullets in one and his wife had called 911 for help to get him to the VA hospital.  Some help.