Questions on CSA Vz58 Cali "Liberty" in 7.62x39

[MeatAxe]

Looks like my son is moving to Commiefornia after all, which means he'll be in need of an all around self-defense / brush rifle when the SHTF or pig hunting, of which the Czechpoint Liberty in 7.62x39 looks like the best option (at least it takes 10 round stripper clips if not detachible mags).

Before we pull the trigger on this, I have a few questions since it's not clear on the website:

1. Is the "Liberty" the same thing as the Vz 58 "Sporter" or "California Sporter"? If not, what's the difference?

2. Are the fixed 7.62 "Liberty" 10-rd and 5-rd magazines double stack or single stack? If double stacked, are they actually the standard metal detachable 10 & 5 round mags, but held fixed by the magazine block?

3. Will the 7.62 "Liberty" take surplus Vz58 stripper clips to load or some proprietary CSA stripper clip (which doesn't seem to be listed in their parts section)?

4. Looks like the left side of the receiver is pre-drilled and tapped to take the optic rail -- is that correct? -- ETA: actually, reading the tiny print on the website, I now see that it is indeed pre-drilled and tapped for the optic rail.

5. Aside from a fore end mount, is there an optic mount from the side rail that will allow co-witnessing the iron sights with a red-dot sight (e.g. Aimpoint Micro or PRO)? Maybe RS Regulate?

6. Any problems feeding Hornady SST ammo in this rifle?

Thanks!

[FallenEagle]

I have the said rifle and I am in California, I can try and answer your questions.

The liberty is the same rifle as the others, with one exception. It has a fixed 10 round magazine that double stacked. The magazine itself is made of polymer construction albeit very sturdy.

The liberty rifle will come with three stripper clips.  Lame, I know but they do work. If your interested in obtaining more check ebay undresand vz58 and you will get many listings. Make sure to get the  "bxn" version.

I believe the csa receivers now come with  the option for optic rail mount. I bought the tactical  version because it came with the rail mount already attached.

The only way to get a co-witness is if you use the NEA fore end style mount. The RS regulate  sits a tad to high for this option. I run a bushnell trs-25 on the nea mount and can get a co-witness. When I run the rs regulate and the aimpoint pro,  no co-witness (awesome setup by the way).

Lastly, I haven't used the hornady so I can'take give a fair assessment on how the rifle likes the ammo. My Vz58 seems to really like Golden Tiger.

Hope this helps.

[TJNewton]

Looks like my son is moving to Commiefornia after all, which means he'll be in need of an all around self-defense / brush rifle when the SHTF or pig hunting, of which the Czechpoint Liberty in 7.62x39 looks like the best option (at least it takes 10 round stripper clips if not detachible mags).

Before we pull the trigger on this, I have a few questions since it's not clear on the website:

1. Is the "Liberty" the same thing as the Vz 58 "Sporter" or "California Sporter"? If not, what's the difference?

2. Are the fixed 7.62 "Liberty" 10-rd and 5-rd magazines double stack or single stack? If double stacked, are they actually the standard metal detachable 10 & 5 round mags, but held fixed by the magazine block?

3. Will the 7.62 "Liberty" take surplus Vz58 stripper clips to load or some proprietary CSA stripper clip (which doesn't seem to be listed in their parts section)?

4. Looks like the left side of the receiver is pre-drilled and tapped to take the optic rail -- is that correct? -- ETA: actually, reading the tiny print on the website, I now see that it is indeed pre-drilled and tapped for the optic rail.

5. Aside from a fore end mount, is there an optic mount from the side rail that will allow co-witnessing the iron sights with a red-dot sight (e.g. Aimpoint Micro or PRO)? Maybe RS Regulate?

6. Any problems feeding Hornady SST ammo in this rifle?

Thanks!

A suggestion:

I love my VZ58 clones, but if your son is going to California and will be restricted to using a ten-round magazine, the SKS may be a better option, especially since the Liberty also has a fixed, stripper-clip fed magazine.  People dog the SKS and stripper clips mainly because most people get the crap NcStar knock-off stripper clips from Amazon or Ebay, then toss the entire concept when those won't feed well or have rounds falling off.  An SKS with the factory fixed mag is a dream to load with good, surplus stripper clips, most notably the Czechoslovakian "BXN" kind.  Apparently Yugo stripper clips are also good, as well as original "Circle-31" Chinese clips, but you have to be careful with those as the knock-offs also have a Circle-31 imprinted.

The same BXN stripper clips that work so beautifully in my SKS's don't work as well in my VZ58 clones.  I believe the reason is that the removable magazines in VZ58's aren't as rigid as the fixed SKS magazines and the wobble makes loading with stripper clips good, but not excellent.  Maybe the Liberty's magazine is just as rigid and would work just as well.  I have no comparison.

The Liberty is about $1200, if it's in stock.  An SKS can be bought for about $300, and the only real upgrade it needs is maybe some trigger work to improve safety and accuracy.  There are two smiths that do a great job, Kivaari and Murray, and the service is less than $100.  My first SKS needed the trigger work, but my second one, which looks beat to hell, had a beautiful trigger on arrival and is very accurate.  Someone probably did the polishing in 1971 in a bamboo hut with a nail file, sand paste, and cup of diesel. 

The SKS can also be modified to accept mounts and optics, but I'm not versed on that subject as I prefer iron sights.

As far SHTF and pig hunting, the SKS is an excellent choice for both.  I'm sure he won't go wrong with the Liberty, but if I were condemned to live again in California, the SKS is the rifle I'd choose. 

[MeatAxe]

Looks like my son is moving to Commiefornia after all, which means he'll be in need of an all around self-defense / brush rifle when the SHTF or pig hunting, of which the Czechpoint Liberty in 7.62x39 looks like the best option (at least it takes 10 round stripper clips if not detachible mags).

Before we pull the trigger on this, I have a few questions since it's not clear on the website:

1. Is the "Liberty" the same thing as the Vz 58 "Sporter" or "California Sporter"? If not, what's the difference?

2. Are the fixed 7.62 "Liberty" 10-rd and 5-rd magazines double stack or single stack? If double stacked, are they actually the standard metal detachable 10 & 5 round mags, but held fixed by the magazine block?

3. Will the 7.62 "Liberty" take surplus Vz58 stripper clips to load or some proprietary CSA stripper clip (which doesn't seem to be listed in their parts section)?

4. Looks like the left side of the receiver is pre-drilled and tapped to take the optic rail -- is that correct? -- ETA: actually, reading the tiny print on the website, I now see that it is indeed pre-drilled and tapped for the optic rail.

5. Aside from a fore end mount, is there an optic mount from the side rail that will allow co-witnessing the iron sights with a red-dot sight (e.g. Aimpoint Micro or PRO)? Maybe RS Regulate?

6. Any problems feeding Hornady SST ammo in this rifle?

Thanks!

A suggestion:

I love my VZ58 clones, but if your son is going to California and will be restricted to using a ten-round magazine, the SKS may be a better option, especially since the Liberty also has a fixed, stripper-clip fed magazine.  People dog the SKS and stripper clips mainly because most people get the crap NcStar knock-off stripper clips from Amazon or Ebay, then toss the entire concept when those won't feed well or have rounds falling off.  An SKS with the factory fixed mag is a dream to load with good, surplus stripper clips, most notably the Czechoslovakian "BXN" kind.  Apparently Yugo stripper clips are also good, as well as original "Circle-31" Chinese clips, but you have to be careful with those as the knock-offs also have a Circle-31 imprinted.

The same BXN stripper clips that work so beautifully in my SKS's don't work as well in my VZ58 clones.  I believe the reason is that the removable magazines in VZ58's aren't as rigid as the fixed SKS magazines and the wobble makes loading with stripper clips good, but not excellent.  Maybe the Liberty's magazine is just as rigid and would work just as well.  I have no comparison.

The Liberty is about $1200, if it's in stock.  An SKS can be bought for about $300, and the only real upgrade it needs is maybe some trigger work to improve safety and accuracy.  There are two smiths that do a great job, Kivaari and Murray, and the service is less than $100.  My first SKS needed the trigger work, but my second one, which looks beat to hell, had a beautiful trigger on arrival and is very accurate.  Someone probably did the polishing in 1971 in a bamboo hut with a nail file, sand paste, and cup of diesel. 

The SKS can also be modified to accept mounts and optics, but I'm not versed on that subject as I prefer iron sights.

As far SHTF and pig hunting, the SKS is an excellent choice for both.  I'm sure he won't go wrong with the Liberty, but if I were condemned to live again in California, the SKS is the rifle I'd choose.

I was under the impression that all SKS rifles were no-nos in Commiefornia...I guess not: https://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

So, apparently, looking at these muddle headed Cali gun regs, as long as an SKS has no detachable mag (only a 10 round fixed) it's OK...as long as it doesn't have a bayo lug or a grenade launcher (in deference to all those poor hapless  Cali victims of bayonet charges and grenade launchings every year, I suppose).

Yes, that might work, although I really like the idea of a Vz58. Although if you run into some muddle headed LEO that also thinks all SKSs are "evil" that fact that the Vz58 is not printed on any ban list might flummox them enough to make them leave you alone.

ETA: looks like all the SKSs available these days are used Chinese models -- forget the nice surplus Yugo models, the bayo and grenade launcher would make a Cali DOJ person !@## his/her/its collective self.

I remember when SKSs sold for $60 new, caked in cosmoline and for another $60 you could get a 1000 round crate of Norinco 7.62x39 ammo...

God bleep it, I $%*&ing hate Commiefornia!

[MeatAxe]

I have the said rifle and I am in California, I can try and answer your questions.

The liberty is the same rifle as the others, with one exception. It has a fixed 10 round magazine that double stacked. The magazine itself is made of polymer construction albeit very sturdy.

The liberty rifle will come with three stripper clips.  Lame, I know but they do work. If your interested in obtaining more check ebay undresand vz58 and you will get many listings. Make sure to get the  "bxn" version.

I believe the csa receivers now come with  the option for optic rail mount. I bought the tactical  version because it came with the rail mount already attached.

The only way to get a co-witness is if you use the NEA fore end style mount. The RS regulate  sits a tad to high for this option. I run a bushnell trs-25 on the nea mount and can get a co-witness. When I run the rs regulate and the aimpoint pro,  no co-witness (awesome setup by the way).

Lastly, I haven't used the hornady so I can'take give a fair assessment on how the rifle likes the ammo. My Vz58 seems to really like Golden Tiger.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for that info!

I wonder if the aluminum body 10-rd mag could be fitted with the Liberty mag block? I know the mag lock can be replaced with the normal mag release parts for use of a standard 30-rd mags once you get back to a free state. So that would seem plausible.

https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/10-rd-double-stack-magazine-complete--refinished--?l=5

From what I now gather, the Vz58 "Sporter" and "California Sporter" have single stack clear plastic 10 round mags with a bullet button, whereas the Liberty has the fixed double stack that can be changed back to a normal mag, which is appealing.

[RSR]

My understanding is that the only reduced capacity double stack polymer mags are 5.56 versions, not 7.62x39. 

The sporter versions do come w/ single stack 7.62x39 mags in polymer.

So w/ the 5.56 the stripper clip functionality likely wouldn't work as well either -- believe all stripper clip grooves are 7.62x39 in bolt carrier, but perhaps Czechpoint took initiative to redesign? 

With the 5.56 version, you *might* be able to use the polymer stanag magwell option and install a bullet button -- but I am not certain on this as haven't closely inspected in person...

Always BXN and/or other Eastern Euro surplus stripper clips.  The new chinese ncstar clips are garbage and do not properly fit the bolt carrier guide groove.

I find the VZ58 to be much handier than the SKS.  8+ lbs for the SKS vs sub 7 lbs for the VZ58.  Provided you can keep a  folding stock on the vz in CA, it has smaller profile than fixed stock SKS, plus the VZ58's ~4" shorter barrel.   Similar levels of accuracy between the two.  IMO, the main SKS advantage is longer sight radius vs the vz58. 
Definitely price out all the mods before you buy too -- by the time you upgrade used surplus guns for reliability vs new, you're many times closer in price than you might otherwise think beforehand...

And all new VZ58s sold by Czechpoint should be drilled and tapped for side plate installation.

[RSR]

Also worth knowing 922r parts and what you might want to swap out:

The five USA made parts used on the vz. 58 Liberty 762 model rifle are: muzzle nut, disconnector, trigger (glass-filled nylon), magazine follower, and magazine floor plate.

[RSR]

Hornady SST steel case (lacquer coated) is my go to for home defense in my VZ2008.  I can shoot hollowpoints, etc, through them too.  Some have reported issues w/ HPs feeding though. 
For bulk, I keep some soft point lacquer coated and golden tiger.

[Franz Maurer]

God bleep it, I $%*&ing hate Commiefornia!

+1.   

[TJNewton]

MeatAxe,

Your son may also consider the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30.  Or an AR15 with an FRS-15, Hammerhead, or Monster Man grips.  Or any other semi-auto, detachable mag rifle without a pistol grip and other evil features.  The Saiga rifle may also be legal.  There is one listed on the flowchart as the Saiga Hunter Rifle, but I'm not sure if it pertains only to that one model.  Someone also seems to have adapted the Monster Man grip for the AK and VZ58:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=104367

The M1 Garand is also a good choice, or maybe even better for quick mag changes is the M1 Carbine.  The M1 Carbine doesn't get the respect it deserves as it existed in the shadow of the far more powerful M1 Garand.  But now that 9mm carbines are all the rage, people fail to consider that a .30 caliber bullet from an M1 Carbine has nearly twice the energy of a bullet from a 9mm carbine.  That's nothing to sneeze at.  Citadel also makes an M1 Carbine copy chambered in 9mm that takes Beretta 92 magazines, but I don't know of what quality.  Plus, the M1 Carbine is just a beautiful rifle.

Those may edge out the VZ Liberty or SKS as those can still use detachable mags without a bullet button.  I would still take a stripper clip loading rifle over one with a bullet button any day. 

I only mention this now as I was ignorant of this specificity of California law, just recently learned of it, and never in my life would have imagined that educated people smart and driven enough to get elected would create such a distinction of pure stupidity. 

It's clear that you already know how to research this, but please verify the above to your own satisfaction.  I've found conflicting information, especially if going chronologically.

[RSR]

Suppose it's a question of detachable mag vs reliability... 

All things considered, I still think the VZ58 comes out on top vs Minis or any garand action rifle...  My understanding is that the latest Ruger Minis are more accurate and have less issues than some of the previous, but their mags are expensive...

Also if not dead set on a modern(ish) military rifle, I personally also really like the idea of a lever action -- .357 magnum lever actions, when looking at ballistic data, are pretty powerful and light kicking rifles...  .30-30s if you want to upsize for similar power+10% to the heavy 150 grain 7.62x39 soft point loadings.

Posted this the other day in another thread.

Another good set of dust tests: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/24/tangofoxtrots-rifle-dust-tests-mini-14-aug-arx-100-scar/

No VZ58 unfortunately.

https://youtu.be/WcfqZFWpk9s

https://youtu.be/synlZgnTnXg

From TFB, more at link above:

The results were surprising to them, but if you?ve been following these articles they shouldn?t be too shocking:

Mini-14 w/ grease ? 1 round

Mini-14 w/ CLP ? 1 round

AR-15 ? 32 rounds

ARX-100 ? 31 rounds

FN SCAR 16S ? 12 rounds

SLR-107FR ? 1 round

The second TangoFoxtrot test has some positive and negative aspects to its methodology. On the plus side, the test was conducted in an especially controlled fashion, with a sieve acting to provide each rifle with an even, uniform coat of fine dust, helping to eliminate error caused by differently sized particulates. Also, the rifles were all dusted while on safe and initially with their dust covers closed (if applicable). After the second (dirty) ten rounds, the dust cover was left open (where applicable), another plus.

On the negative side, the rifles were retired as soon as they had a malfunction of any kind, which halted any exploration of whether the rifles would keep functioning with the assistance of manual operation, or whether the rifles could be successfully put back into action with remedial action. The rifles were then rated only according to how many rounds they fired before malfunction, which limited the utility of the results. Finally, the SCAR 16S was tested (probably by accident) with the regulator on the ?suppressed? setting, which almost certainly led to its premature malfunction.

Having said all that, the TangoFoxtrot tests are still informative. Once again, the AR-15 proves to be a remarkably dust-resistant rifle, in spite of the reputation it received in the GWOT. The AK puts out a particularly poor performance (although it possibly could have continued working with manual assistance), but the true loser of the test is once again the Garand-style open action, in this case in the form of a Ruger Mini-14.

Thanks to commenters mosinman and Gecko9mm for the tip!

UPDATE: The SCAR owner writes ?

   

The complete story is that I thought the SCAR was horribly overgassed when I first got it. Even with the gas regulator set to the suppressed setting it flung brass and the bolt carrier crashed into the buffer.

    So I got a set of gas screws (that form the actual gas port) and tuned it for the ammo I actually shoot. I set the gas regulator to suppressed, inserted the smallest gas screw (1.00mm) and fired from a magazine loaded with only one round. I kept increasing the gas screw size until the bolt carrier locked open on the empty mag, then went up 2 sizes (the gas screws come in 0.05mm increments) for a little reserve power.

    When we did the test about two or three years later I had completely forgotten that I had set up the gas system that way. If I had remembered I would have returned the rifle to the stock configuration before shooting.

    Two other notes:
    1) All the rifles were shot with a new, clean magazine.
    2) The reasoning for stopping after the first malfunction was to keep everything similar and make the whole run shorter. The first test with the Mini-14 and the AUG was a miserable experience in hammering the Mini?s bolt open and shut after it choked.

    I just wanted to clear up what actually happened with the SCAR, just plain incompetence, not malice.

[MeatAxe]

MeatAxe,

Your son may also consider the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30.  Or an AR15 with an FRS-15, Hammerhead, or Monster Man grips.  Or any other semi-auto, detachable mag rifle without a pistol grip and other evil features.  The Saiga rifle may also be legal.  There is one listed on the flowchart as the Saiga Hunter Rifle, but I'm not sure if it pertains only to that one model.  Someone also seems to have adapted the Monster Man grip for the AK and VZ58:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=104367

The M1 Garand is also a good choice, or maybe even better for quick mag changes is the M1 Carbine.  The M1 Carbine doesn't get the respect it deserves as it existed in the shadow of the far more powerful M1 Garand.  But now that 9mm carbines are all the rage, people fail to consider that a .30 caliber bullet from an M1 Carbine has nearly twice the energy of a bullet from a 9mm carbine.  That's nothing to sneeze at.  Citadel also makes an M1 Carbine copy chambered in 9mm that takes Beretta 92 magazines, but I don't know of what quality.  Plus, the M1 Carbine is just a beautiful rifle.

Those may edge out the VZ Liberty or SKS as those can still use detachable mags without a bullet button.  I would still take a stripper clip loading rifle over one with a bullet button any day. 

I only mention this now as I was ignorant of this specificity of California law, just recently learned of it, and never in my life would have imagined that educated people smart and driven enough to get elected would create such a distinction of pure stupidity. 

It's clear that you already know how to research this, but please verify the above to your own satisfaction.  I've found conflicting information, especially if going chronologically.

Well, my reading of CA's incomprehensible gun laws is that unless you were in possession of a 10+ round detachable mag (in CA) prior to 2000, they're illegal to use (if not possess). No trade, transfer, or "importation" of a 10+ round mag in CA after 2000. There's a lot more incomprehensible rigamarole about magazine "parts kits."

Ruger: I've experienced an older Mini 14 and must say it was one of the most inaccurate .223 rifles over a string of shots I've ever seen. Not a fan of Ruger in general, especially since they worked hand in glove with the Clintonistas on the AWB, so I'm still boycotting them.

M1 Garand: going on 80 years old, 8 rd. en bloc clip with all it's shortcomings, long barrel battle rifle...would like to have one for a collector rifle, but wouldn't be my go to SHTF carbine.

M1A -- at least we can use 10 rd detachable mags with a non-pistol grip / folding/collapsible stock, but that's more of a battle rifle at 20" bbl length and .308s in a 16" bbl are not much more than a 7.62x39 but with a lot more muzzle blast. IMO, 7.62x39 is ideal for a SHTF carbine / brush rifle w/ 16" bbl or shorter.

SKSs, M1 Carbines and AKs with bullet buttons would be 2nd choices to the CSA Vz58 in CA, IMO.

[RSR]

M1 Garand: going on 80 years old, 8 rd. en bloc clip with all it's shortcomings, long barrel battle rifle...would like to have one for a collector rifle, but wouldn't be my go to SHTF carbine.

M1A -- at least we can use 10 rd detachable mags with a non-pistol grip / folding/collapsible stock, but that's more of a battle rifle at 20" bbl length and .308s in a 16" bbl are not much more than a 7.62x39 but with a lot more muzzle blast. IMO, 7.62x39 is ideal for a SHTF carbine / brush rifle w/ 16" bbl or shorter.

+1 on M1 garand.

+1 on "7.62x39 is ideal for a SHTF carbine / brush rifle w/ 16" bbl or shorter."

However, 147 grain winchester fmj .308 out of 16.5" barrel should be running around 2700 ft/s and deliver 2348 ft lbs of energy.
123 gr barnaul fmj 7.62x39 out of 16" barrel should be running around 2400 ft/s and deliver 1653 ft lbs of energy.

To be clear, I don't see M1as or really any .308 battle rifle as being ideal or better than the VZ58 as a carbine, especially when considering the larger/heavier operating system to handle the larger caliber, the significant weight increase of said ammo, increased ammo cost, and (IMO) excessive ballistics for present day self defense scenarios...  In brief, I think 7.62x39 is a great defensive caliber, as the range required for .308/7.62 nato to have the advantage would next to never be legally justifiable in a non-SHTF scenario...  On the offensive or defense at range, the .308 is clearly superior, but IMO that range/effectiveness clearly diverging is around 250 yards/meters... 
Nevertheless, there is a lot of interesting development in the .308/7.62 nato ammo market for shorter barrels.  The main driver of this appears to have been spec forces adoption of the SCAR-H w/ 13 & 16" barrels.
Particular ammo is MK319 Mod 0, T762TNB1.  A 130gr OTM projectile, which out of a 16" barrel is running at 2900+ fps , which should be around 2500 ft-lbs of energy, or 900 ft lbs more than 7.62x39 cartridges with similarly weighted bullets...

[MeatAxe]

M1 Garand: going on 80 years old, 8 rd. en bloc clip with all it's shortcomings, long barrel battle rifle...would like to have one for a collector rifle, but wouldn't be my go to SHTF carbine.

M1A -- at least we can use 10 rd detachable mags with a non-pistol grip / folding/collapsible stock, but that's more of a battle rifle at 20" bbl length and .308s in a 16" bbl are not much more than a 7.62x39 but with a lot more muzzle blast. IMO, 7.62x39 is ideal for a SHTF carbine / brush rifle w/ 16" bbl or shorter.

+1 on M1 garand.

+1 on "7.62x39 is ideal for a SHTF carbine / brush rifle w/ 16" bbl or shorter."

However, 147 grain winchester fmj .308 out of 16.5" barrel should be running around 2700 ft/s and deliver 2348 ft lbs of energy.
123 gr barnaul fmj 7.62x39 out of 16" barrel should be running around 2400 ft/s and deliver 1653 ft lbs of energy.

To be clear, I don't see M1as or really any .308 battle rifle as being ideal or better than the VZ58 as a carbine, especially when considering the larger/heavier operating system to handle the larger caliber, the significant weight increase of said ammo, increased ammo cost, and (IMO) excessive ballistics for present day self defense scenarios...  In brief, I think 7.62x39 is a great defensive caliber, as the range required for .308/7.62 nato to have the advantage would next to never be legally justifiable in a non-SHTF scenario...  On the offensive or defense at range, the .308 is clearly superior, but IMO that range/effectiveness clearly diverging is around 250 yards/meters... 
Nevertheless, there is a lot of interesting development in the .308/7.62 nato ammo market for shorter barrels.  The main driver of this appears to have been spec forces adoption of the SCAR-H w/ 13 & 16" barrels.
Particular ammo is MK319 Mod 0, T762TNB1.  A 130gr OTM projectile, which out of a 16" barrel is running at 2900+ fps , which should be around 2500 ft-lbs of energy, or 900 ft lbs more than 7.62x39 cartridges with similarly weighted bullets...

Having shot both the .308 and 7.62x39 extensively out of 16" barrels, I'd still take the 7.62x39 for a general purpose SHTF / survival rifle, especially in an urban setting. For one thing, the ammo is relatively cheap for practice and stockpiling. Plus the fact that it's relatively low / manageable recoil but still a good stopper for big game and...zombies in a handy package.

Of course, the .308 is more powerful, but it also kicks like a mule and the muzzle blast is horrendous, especially of you had to shoot inside / close quarters. For me, the 7.62x39 rifle is a handier package and it still penetrates barriers pretty well. At extended ranges, of course, the .308 has the edge, and even 16" barrels can be quite accurate.

The truth is you need both!

[MeatAxe]

Suppose it's a question of detachable mag vs reliability... 

All things considered, I still think the VZ58 comes out on top vs Minis or any garand action rifle...  My understanding is that the latest Ruger Minis are more accurate and have less issues than some of the previous, but their mags are expensive...

Also if not dead set on a modern(ish) military rifle, I personally also really like the idea of a lever action -- .357 magnum lever actions, when looking at ballistic data, are pretty powerful and light kicking rifles...  .30-30s if you want to upsize for similar power+10% to the heavy 150 grain 7.62x39 soft point loadings.

Posted this the other day in another thread.

Another good set of dust tests: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/24/tangofoxtrots-rifle-dust-tests-mini-14-aug-arx-100-scar/

No VZ58 unfortunately.

https://youtu.be/WcfqZFWpk9s

https://youtu.be/synlZgnTnXg

From TFB, more at link above:

The results were surprising to them, but if you?ve been following these articles they shouldn?t be too shocking:

Mini-14 w/ grease ? 1 round

Mini-14 w/ CLP ? 1 round

AR-15 ? 32 rounds

ARX-100 ? 31 rounds

FN SCAR 16S ? 12 rounds

SLR-107FR ? 1 round

The second TangoFoxtrot test has some positive and negative aspects to its methodology. On the plus side, the test was conducted in an especially controlled fashion, with a sieve acting to provide each rifle with an even, uniform coat of fine dust, helping to eliminate error caused by differently sized particulates. Also, the rifles were all dusted while on safe and initially with their dust covers closed (if applicable). After the second (dirty) ten rounds, the dust cover was left open (where applicable), another plus.

On the negative side, the rifles were retired as soon as they had a malfunction of any kind, which halted any exploration of whether the rifles would keep functioning with the assistance of manual operation, or whether the rifles could be successfully put back into action with remedial action. The rifles were then rated only according to how many rounds they fired before malfunction, which limited the utility of the results. Finally, the SCAR 16S was tested (probably by accident) with the regulator on the ?suppressed? setting, which almost certainly led to its premature malfunction.

Having said all that, the TangoFoxtrot tests are still informative. Once again, the AR-15 proves to be a remarkably dust-resistant rifle, in spite of the reputation it received in the GWOT. The AK puts out a particularly poor performance (although it possibly could have continued working with manual assistance), but the true loser of the test is once again the Garand-style open action, in this case in the form of a Ruger Mini-14.

Thanks to commenters mosinman and Gecko9mm for the tip!

UPDATE: The SCAR owner writes ?

   

The complete story is that I thought the SCAR was horribly overgassed when I first got it. Even with the gas regulator set to the suppressed setting it flung brass and the bolt carrier crashed into the buffer.

    So I got a set of gas screws (that form the actual gas port) and tuned it for the ammo I actually shoot. I set the gas regulator to suppressed, inserted the smallest gas screw (1.00mm) and fired from a magazine loaded with only one round. I kept increasing the gas screw size until the bolt carrier locked open on the empty mag, then went up 2 sizes (the gas screws come in 0.05mm increments) for a little reserve power.

    When we did the test about two or three years later I had completely forgotten that I had set up the gas system that way. If I had remembered I would have returned the rifle to the stock configuration before shooting.

    Two other notes:
    1) All the rifles were shot with a new, clean magazine.
    2) The reasoning for stopping after the first malfunction was to keep everything similar and make the whole run shorter. The first test with the Mini-14 and the AUG was a miserable experience in hammering the Mini?s bolt open and shut after it choked.

    I just wanted to clear up what actually happened with the SCAR, just plain incompetence, not malice.

So we've established that if you stuff the innards of your auto-loading rifle with dirt, it's gonna jam, even the vaunted AK. I'm glad I'm not in the habit of pouring dirt into my weapons!

I note that he poured a TON more dirt into the AK action than the other rifles, which were lightly dusted by comparison and the AK was easily cleared unlike the others that got locked up solid. He probably could have just pushed the bolt forward into battery on the AK and got it to fire the rest of the mag. And just try to find parts, mags, etc. for the Beretta and the FN...my neighbor had a SCAR 16 and broke some little plastic doohickey that took him months to find, along with "unobtainium" mags for $$$...and then there's anemic 5.56 round...

I'd still take a good 7.62x39 AK in a SHTF situation. As long as you don't stuff it with dirt, it requires little maintenance, hits hard, easily penetrates common barriers, is accurate enough to knock somebody down, carries a lot of cartridges in the mag, the ammo is relatively cheap for practice and stockpiling and 99.99999% of the time it goes bang when you pull the trigger.

Like the man said, when civilization comes to an end, give me an AK!!!

I hope the Vz58 will be as reliable!