.45ACP extreme accuracy for CZ-97B

[Boris_LA]

After long search i have finally found and bought today CZ-97B. While gun is on long California 10 days wait, I want to start preparing for reloading for it. I have shot, but never owned .45ACP guns and only have (little) experience loading 9mm. My hope is to shorten the learning curve, avoid mistakes made while learning loading for 9mm and start right this time. I have Hornady LnL AP, Lee Classic cast presses and accessories like scales, calipers, tumbler, tricklers. I also have selection of powders. Gun and ammo will be used only for Bullseye competitions. Need soft, target load under 4 MOA spread 2" or less to 50 yards. Expect to shoot 200-300 rounds a month. No need for SD, plinking, Run and Gun games. If gun itself is not mechanically accurate from the factory, it will get CGW treatment.

Here are some of the questions i have:
1. Brass
My understanding that 45 ACP is more forgiving to brass selection. Is there measurable difference between new brass, sorted reused or unsorted? In 9mm it makes measurable difference, is it the same in 45 ACP?
2. Bullets
I know many BE shooters using SWC lead bullets. Is it because of the price or they are more accurate? Also what weight would you recommend for CZ 97 barrel? 185gr, 200gr, 230gr? Different bullets for 25yards and 50yards? Any particular brand is stand out for accuracy? I am not looking for casting my own bullets. I will measure and calculate the correct COAL for my barrel. I would preffer to limit my bullets selection to two bullets only. One for extreme accuracy to 50yards and one (hopefully cheaper) for acceptable accuracy for 25 yards and practice.
3. Powder
I have some powders and prefer to use what i have already. I am aware of favorite BE powders like Bullseye and Unique, but don't have them. Which ones from my list are great for 45ACP (not just good enough):
TiteGroup - successfully using it for 9mm.
WSF
HP-38/W231
Clay
Universal (not Universal Clay)
Ramshot Silhouette
VV N320 - only have 1lb. Great for 9mm, but expensive. May not buy it beyond this jar.

4. Dies
For 9mm i have started with Lee Carbide 3 die set and end up buying additional Lee FCD, Hornady bullet seating die and finally Hornady 3 die set. I would rather get one set for 45 ACP this time. Is Lee 3 or 4 carbide die set sufficient? I don't want to spend more than I have to. Gadgets and gimmicks like micro adjustment steams and such do not impress me. I am also not brand loyal and have immunity to advertisement hype. I will set it once and leave them for one final load.

Anything else important to consider?

Much appreciated in advance.

[cdhbrad]

Look at this link if you want to see what accomplished Bullseye shooters are using:  http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1209-pet-loads-of-top-shooters-loads-from-the-past.
Read other threads on the Ammunition discussion and you will pick up some helpful info.  I know I have.   
My 97B-E from CGW likes 200gr coated LSWC with either 4.0 gr. of Bullseye or VVN310 loaded so that the length from base of case to shoulder of the bullets is between .935-.940 and crimped to .469-.470.  Same load I use in all my 1911s in .45ACP.  You might try some W231, 4.6gr with a 200gr. SWC is also accurate in my guns.   

Lee dies will work.  Personally, I use Redding Competition dies for all pistol and rifle calibers I load and I also use a Lee Classic Turret press.   

[Boris_LA]

Thank you for the link. I read that forum regularly and have seen this post. I guess I was looking more for the general process, equipment and components selection hints, not for the exact recipes.
Glad to hear that CZ-97 likes the same load as 1911s. It makes it easier. You are using LSWC bullets as many other BE shooters. Is there specific reasons for it? Is it more accurate bullet? Cheaper than JHP? Any problems with feeding it in the CZ?

[cdhbrad]

IF I were after "Ultimate Accuracy", I would probably be shooting a JHP of an appropriate weight but I'm not.  Plenty of successful Bullseye shooters still use LSWC, I suppose it just depends on how much you want to spend on each round.  My 97B-E feeds both 185 and 200gr LSWC, without any problems at all, just like all my 1911s.  I did have the chamber reamed to the same depth as a 1911 chamber by the 1911 smith I use (Bunker Arms who does all of the Cerakote work for CGW and some of their bluing) so that may have some effect but he didn't touch the feed ramp.     

[M1A4ME]

Lots of competitions won and records set with lead bullets in a .45 acp.  It's not fast so it doesn't need plating or a jacket for that reason.  It's not a high pressure round.  If the barrel is nice and smooth leading shouldn't be an issue.  I don't know about a 97 but my P07 and P09 barrels are so shiny and smooth it looks like they've been polished.

Most accurate stuff I even shot out of my 1911's was a 225 grain lead round nosed bullet from my Lee mold with 6.0 grains of Unique behind it.  Different guns may like different combinations.

I've only had one .45 acp that was picky about overall length so I never paid much attention to it till I got that Colt Series 70 Mk4 (pain in the butt gun till I figured out is "wanted" longer overall lengths than I'd ever loaded before.)  You'll just have to figure out, for your pistol, where the combination of magazine fitting in/feeding from, feed from the magazine to the chamber, what will chamber or won't and then what tweaking you can do, if any, to improve accuracy.  Get it to function first, then fine tune for the accuracy.

I always though the wad cutters were intended to cut nice neat holes in the paper for scoring purposes.  The semi-wad cutters are designed to get a bullet that will function in a semi-auto pistol and still do a good job of cutting as neat a hole in the paper as possible.

I've never had to crimp a .45 acp very "hard".  Just remove the belling of the case mouth and barely press in the lip after that.

I've used Lee carbide dies for a few years.  Used to use RCBS carbide dies (didn't have any issues with them, just haven't used them for awhile).

My process is like this these days.

Toss the brass in the vibratory cleaner (walnut shell media) and run it for a bit (how long depends on when the brass looks clean enough to resize).

Resize the brass.  Inspecting for cracks (sometimes, if it's quiet you'll hear them crack in the die.

Bell the case mouth.  Inspect again to make sure they didn't crack at this step.

Prime them. Inspect to make sure none of the primers flipped upside down.

Put the brass in a loading tray.

Put powder in 50 cases.  Inspect the powder level with a bright light.  Reweigh any that look high or low.  This takes care of the random scale check I like to do to confirm nothing in the powder measure set up has drifted.

Set the bullets in the case mouths and seat them/crimp them.  Inspect one last time before putting them in a box/can/bottle.

[Boris_LA]

Do lead bullets require lubrication or its an option that can be ignored?

[painter]

Do lead bullets require lubrication or its an option that can be ignored?

They either need to be coated, or lubed.

[Boris_LA]

So I guess the new HiTek coated SWC or something like Zero JHP is the easier to deal with, but more expensive?

[1SOW]

Shooter friends I know really like "Clays" in their 45 loads.
They had me searching for it during the outage.

[Boris_LA]

I have a pound of Clay. Bought it for testing in 9mm, but end up not using. I also learned that from my list W231/HP-38 is popular for 45ACP.

Any thought on brass? New, reused, sorted, doesn't matter?

[IDescribe]

1. Brass
My understanding that 45 ACP is more forgiving to brass selection. Is there measurable difference between new brass, sorted reused or unsorted? In 9mm it makes measurable difference, is it the same in 45 ACP?

Like every type of loading, there's always some measure someone is taking that you're not that you could add to the list.  But as usual, a lot of those extra steps are only going to pay off after hundreds of yards.  If this is for 50 yards, then I would suggest sorting brass by headstamp, but that might be the only extra more-than-the-usual step I would recommend.  And there are plenty of people who don't even go that extra step.

2. Bullets
I know many BE shooters using SWC lead bullets. Is it because of the price or they are more accurate? Also what weight would you recommend for CZ 97 barrel? 185gr, 200gr, 230gr? Different bullets for 25yards and 50yards? Any particular brand is stand out for accuracy? I am not looking for casting my own bullets. I will measure and calculate the correct COAL for my barrel. I would preffer to limit my bullets selection to two bullets only. One for extreme accuracy to 50yards and one (hopefully cheaper) for acceptable accuracy for 25 yards and practice.

Nosler 185JHP are supposed to be THE best, and I think that is in terms of being generally the best, not always the best. 
Zero 185JHP are supposed to be a direct copy of the Nosler, and many legit BE guys say they can't tell the difference.
200gr and 185gr LSWC are more than capable, and in some guns will equal and maybe do better than the Nosler 185 JHP.  Depends on the pistol.
Coated SWC -- pretty much the same as bare lead.  More on that in a minute.

185, 200, 230gr?  You're not going to find people shooting 230gr for Bullseye unless that weight is required by the event.  CMP used to do that, but that may have changed recently.  When a sport has a minimum power factor, which is a measure of momentum, heavier bullets will have less felt recoil than lighter bullets at the same factor, so many prefer heavier bullets.  In sports where there is no minimum power factor, that flies out the window, and your lightest recoiling rounds are going to be with the lightest bullets.  That's the case in Bullseye.  So you have to find the right balance for you and your pistol between recoil and accuracy, and you're allowed to use different bullets for different legs of the event.  At 50 yards, the 200 grain bullet is going to be affected less by wind than the 185, and if it's a windy day, that might matter.  At 25 yards, though, you're not likely to be shooting in high enough winds to matter there, so the 200gr bullet loses it's advantage there.  Then at 25 yards rapid fire where you're shooting 1 round every 2 seconds, the 185gr bullet gets an advantage on recoil, and that becomes preferred.  There are plenty of people shooting SWC who shoot 200 at the 50 yard line and 185 or lighter at the 25.  There are people who shoot 185gr JHP at the 50 and 185gr lead at the 25.  Your pistol.  Your hand.  Work out what is best for you.
   
OAL for JHP, handle as normal.  OAL for SWC, it's about getting the shoulder the right height over the case mouth.  Too much, and it will jam; too little and it will jam.  And it's a SMALL window. In the picture below, the 1.232 were too short and jammed regularly, and the 1.263 were too long and jammed regularly.  1.237- to 1.243 worked almost perfect, then perfect, then as it broke in a little further the 100+ at 1.263 that I had loaded but didn't want to break down -- they ended up working perfectly.  So there was definitely a break in issue at play, but the window is NOT big.

3. Powder
I have some powders and prefer to use what i have already. I am aware of favorite BE powders like Bullseye and Unique, but don't have them. Which ones from my list are great for 45ACP (not just good enough):
TiteGroup - successfully using it for 9mm.
WSF
HP-38/W231
Clay
Universal (not Universal Clay)
Ramshot Silhouette
VV N320 - only have 1lb. Great for 9mm, but expensive. May not buy it beyond this jar.

.45 is a fat-case, low pressure round, and it tends to lean toward a manufacturer's faster (if not outright fastest) powder(s).
Your most popular bullseye powders are going to be Bullseye, N310, WST and Clays, not necessarily in that order, but definitely with Bullseye in 1st.  Nitro100 is also perfectly appropriate.  Some people can't say enough about the still fast, but not fastest powders like AA2, Titegroup, HP38/Win231, and N320.

And you're in luck because you have HP38/Win231 on hand, and that's what Schmeky, the guy who would accurize your 97 at CGW, uses in his bullseye pet load.    And if that doesn't work out for you, you still have Clays and Titegroup.  So you're fine on powder for now.

4. Dies
For 9mm i have started with Lee Carbide 3 die set and end up buying additional Lee FCD, Hornady bullet seating die and finally Hornady 3 die set. I would rather get one set for 45 ACP this time. Is Lee 3 or 4 carbide die set sufficient? I don't want to spend more than I have to. Gadgets and gimmicks like micro adjustment steams and such do not impress me. I am also not brand loyal and have immunity to advertisement hype. I will set it once and leave them for one final load.

There is no die discussion with Bullseye shooting that's any different than any other pistol die discussion -- there are a thousand of them to read already -- so no reason to have another one, except to say:

Do NOT use an FCD with lead or coated lead.  If you're planning on going LSWC or coated SWC, no FCD. Also, no FCD with lead or coated lead. 




NOW, some quick stuff with me and my 97BE from CGW.  I loaded maybe 6 bullets right off the bat, all with N310.  The Zero 200gr LSWC, ACME 200gr coated SWC, and the ACME 175gr coated SWC stuck out immediately, and despite having several boxes of Zero 185gr JHP, they didn't do as well in MY 97BE during initial testing, and quite frankly, I never got back to them.  I can produce sub 4-inch groups with all three of those bullets with wrists rested.  I can't do that off hand, but I do NOT consider myself a great shot, and if I can get under 4 inches at 50 even rested, then my Cajun Gunworks accurized 97BE is getting under 2 for sure.

I wish I had more for you than that.  I am confident I can make the Zero 185gr JHP work just fine.  I just haven't gotten back to it.  My bullseye shooting suffered a failure to launch.  I still shoot the pistol and love it, and I still do some bullseye practice with it, thinking "one of these days," but I've ramped up the practical shooting instead, and that's where I'm spending why weekends now.

Good luck. 



edited to correct brain fart.  Sierra Nosler.    Oops.

[IDescribe]

Oh, and if you go with SWC, the trick isn't with OAL.  It's with shoulder height over the case mouth.  Once you find the shoulder height that functions right, you'll note that and the OAL, and then adjust all future SWC bullets to the same shoulder height.  Fortunately for me, Zero and ACME SWC have more or less exactly the same profile, so I was able to stick with the same OAL for all of them, which for me is 1.240. 

There is likely to be a very small window that will feed reliably.  In the image below, when the pistol was new, the bullet on the left was too short to feed reliably, the one in the middle was too long.  And the one on the right was the max OAL by push test.  So when I say there's a narrow window, I mean very narrow. 



After sorting trough some initial OAL tuning for function,  1.240 +/- .003 seemed to be a good target OAL for the SWC bullet pictured.  BUT after the pistol broke in a little, those cartridges in the middle, which I had 100+ of already loaded sitting around, those bullets fired without malfunction, as well, despite being a problem when the pistol was brand new. I may play with OAL a little more in the future... maybe... but all those SWC bullets are lasers at 1.240 with N310, and I'm not sure there's much more to get out of them in terms of mechanical accuracy.

[noylj]

Remember, you are shooting a handgun that, if doing really well, will group about 4" at 25 yards. This is about 12-18 MOA, compared to folks who shoot 0.3-1.5 MOA rifles. Tricks to shave off 0.1" from the group size will NOT be noticed with a handgun.

>1. Brass
>My understanding that 45 ACP is more forgiving to brass selection. Is there measurable >difference between new brass, sorted reused or unsorted? In 9mm it makes measurable >difference, is it the same in 45 ACP?

Cases: don't trim cases that head space on the case mouth, it will only increase head space and reduce accuracy.
I have never found any cases that are more accurate than others, at least in .45 Auto.
I have sorted cases in .45 auto, 9x19, .38 Super, and .44 Rem Mag. In all cases, the mixed cases where as accurate as the sorted rounds. In fact. if I take any of those and average the mixed group size and the sorted group size, the mixed is actually a touch smaller--but NOT to a statistically significant amount at a 90% confidence limit. Again, you aren't shooting a 1 MOA rifle.
Bullseye shooters have been concentrating on small groups for decades and none of the ones I know sort brass, trim brass, or do more than make sure the primer is tight and the cases have no splits.

>2. Bullets
>I know many BE shooters using SWC lead bullets. Is it because of the price or they are more >accurate?

For my .45s, 200gn L-SWCs like the RCBS 452-201-KT (now, I think it is SWC) and the H&G #68 were the most accurate cast bullets. 185gn JHPs are the most accurate jacketed bullets. NO plated bullet has been accurate.
So, I am well-stocked with Zero swaged 200gn L-SWCs (about 7.7 cents/bullet from Powder Valley) and Precision Bullets swaged and coated 200gn L-SWCs (about 9 cents/bullet).


>Also what weight would you recommend for CZ 97 barrel?

Your gun had better have a SAAMI spec chamber, so it is no different than any other properly chambered .45 Auto. It may be picky or not, but no one can tell you what bullet will be best in YOUR gun, as your gun is both the same and different from all others. You'll find as much variation from one CZ to another as from a CZ to a S&W or 1911. All we can say is what works in MOST .45 Autos. See above.

>Different bullets for 25yards and 50yards?

I always shot the most accurate bullet/load I could find at both distances. Since 50 yards is so critical and 25 yards as more "leeway," some use lighter loads for rapid fire and the short line and save their premium loads for the 50 yards line. I consider every line important.

>Any particular brand is stand out for accuracy? I am not looking for casting my own bullets.

You can ask at the Bullseye-L forum, but in general, Nosler or Zero 185gn JHPs or Zero or Magnus swaged 185gn L-SWCHP or 200gn L-SWC are top picks.

>I will measure and calculate the correct COAL for my barrel.

And how do you do this?
Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH ?COL?
It is important to note that the SAAMI ?COL? values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
? Always begin loading at the minimum ?Start Load.?"

Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case?expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.

You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.


>I would preffer to limit my bullets selection to two bullets only. One for extreme accuracy to 50yards and one (hopefully cheaper) for acceptable accuracy for 25 yards and practice.

See above.

3. Powder
>I have some powders and prefer to use what i have already. I am aware of favorite BE powders >like Bullseye and Unique, but don't have them. Which ones from my list are great for 45ACP >>(not just good enough):
>TiteGroup - successfully using it for 9mm.

God, this powder stinks in my guns. What kind of accuracy do you get with 9x19? I can't really get any TG load below about 4" at 25 yards consistently. YMMV.

>WSF

too slow for really great .45 Auto target loads. Low pressures need fast powders.

>HP-38/W231

This has been the most consistently accurate powder for me in .45 Auto, followed by Bullseye, Red Dot, and AA2.

>Clay(s)

Hasn't been very accurate and in ONLY accurate over about +/- 0.1gn charge. YMMV.

>Universal (not Universal Clay)

Hasn't even been close to Unique in accuracy, and the powders mentioned above are more accurate than Unique. YMMV.

>Ramshot Silhouette

What a great powder--just not for .45 Auto target loads.

>VV N320 - only have 1lb. Great for 9mm, but expensive. May not buy it beyond this jar.

Couldn't afford it, but it is right there with 231/HP38 and Green Dot, so it should be an excellent powder.

>4. Dies
>For 9mm i have started with Lee Carbide 3 die set and end up buying additional Lee FCD,

My recommendation is NOT to use the FCD, particularly NOT with lead bullets. Get a standard Lee taper crimp die. It is as good as any other taper crimp die. Get the Lee 3-die set and order a custom seating stem for each bullet you get. For L-SWCs, I get a seating plug that ONLY touches the SWC shoulder. This, to me, will both help align the bullet to enter the case straight and, once set, will give you the right COL for every SWC bullet, no matter if long- or button-nose.
A custom seating plug is a real benefit in seating the bullet straight and eliminated the bulged case a the base of the bullet caused by seating crooked. If you eliminate this problem, the FCD is no more than a really good crimp die that can swage bullets down and destroy accuracy and bullet/case tension.

>Hornady bullet seating die and finally Hornady 3 die set.

The Hornady has a sliding sleeve that can help to keep the bullet aligned. I like the New Dimension dies, but when I run accuracy tests, the Lee dies do just as well for less money (money that I can use for components--remember, Bullseye is about the gun and shooter and less about the bullet and powder/charge, so range time is important). If you aren't loading on a progressive or charging the cases with a case-activated measure, the expander die with the Hornady dies an excellent die. If you shoot lead bullets, you may still need an expander (or PTF or PTX or "Powder Funner") that is 0.001-0.002" larger than the generic unit made of jacketed bullets.

[noylj]

Oh my God, in case it wasn't mentioned, all commercial lead bullets come already lubricated.
Also, you should slug your barrel and ensure that the lead bullets are at least 0.001" larger than actual groove diameter. SAAMI spec for groove diameter is 0.450-0.454", with SAAMI specifying jacketed bullets at 0.449-0.452" and lead bullets at 0.450-0.453", though I don't shoot either type of bullet at less than actual groove diameter.
I like to order cast bullets as-cast and unlubed. I found back in the '70s that my cast bullets were a bit more accurate unsized, so I used over-sized sizing dies in my Lubri-Sizer at first, then went to pan lubing, then tumble lubing. Currently, I prefer the swaged bullets from Zero or Precision Bullets and they more than meet my needs. No cast bullet has the consistent weight and dimensions of a swaged bullet, and I can't cast my own any more and, with old age, prefer to buy them instead of "make" them.

[Boris_LA]

noylj and ID,
Thank you both for very detailed guidance. Its exactly the information i was looking for.
The major pointers what I took from those posts are sum like this:

1. Brass - Don't get too obsessed with it. No need for new. Reuse until it fails or primer pocket get loose. May sort for my own enjoyment or skip sorting if don't feel like.

2. Bullets - Try some Zero 185 JHP, Zero swaged 200gn L-SWC, and Zero or Magnus swaged 185gn L-SWCHP in the small sample packs before committing to larger batch. Commercial lead bullets already lubed and no need for separate lubing step. Shot few hundred factory ammo first to break in gun as usual.

3. Powder - Start with W231/HP-38 (likely i have 8+lb of it) as my best bet and later try some Clay and TG to compare the results. Don't bother with WSF and slower powders for 45 ACP. BTW my 9mm loads with Hornady 125 HAP and TG group 1.75-2" at 50 yards with wrists rested on the counter. I don't shot fast enough like IDPA or similar gun games to overheat the gun.

4. Dies - Will start with Hornady new dimensions 3 die set. I like them in 9mm. After free bullets price is not much higher than Lee. No FCD. I have a small lathe and if i find necessary will turn another insert or modify the seating die. In case of LSWC bullets seat and measure on the shoulder instead of nose. Targeting more reliable feeding.

If the best accuracy is obtained with not the most expensive bullet, just use the same bullet/load on both lines or experiment with lighter load for short line.
Did i miss anything very important?