Another witness for the safe, EA9B, small frame

[darink300zx]

Okay, so I picked this up yesterday and shot it right after.  The sku is 999111 and the box says EA9B as the model. 

First off, shoots great.  Shoots pretty much to point of aim, maybe a tad low, but that could be me.  The picture of the target below can attest to that.  All shots were at 7 yards and this was probably 3 or 4 magazines worth.  I didn't do any lengthy shooting I just wanted to check for function.  I did shoot three different brands. Some cheap PPU JHP, tulammo steel cased, and some cheap american eagle range ammo.  All fired with no issues.  That PPU put a fireball out in front that I could see very well each shot, lol. 

The neat thing about this gun is that A) it is "blued" instead of a wonder finish (as most of their new production steel frames seem to be), and B) it is a small frame witness.  Most witnesses EAA imports are large frame, so when I came upon this one on Budsgunshop I was intrigued (thinking it was a small frame by the description on their website) and emailed EAA.  Their response was that it was indeed a small frame and had been a special run for one of their US distributors.  It is indeed a small frame as I was told by EAA.  Mecgar CZ75b 17 rounders worked it in perfectly.  As can be seen in the pic it has an accessory rail on it, which I was kind of hoping it wouldn't, but oh well.  The date code box is CP, which by my reckoning would be this year.  The FAB92 I discussed in another thread also has CP in the date code. 

The finish on it is, eh, ok. It's applied well and seems durable, but it's just a flat black finish, nothing fancy.  I don't mind it, but I do prefer a glossy blued finish or even their Wonderfinish.  Anyway, I like the gun.  The cost on it was right at 420 after tax so I think it's a pretty fair deal.  For anyone who wants a small frame steel witness, new, like I did, this is the gun.

Darin.

[MikeLW]

Yea, That's pretty awesome.

[jwc007]

Very Sweet deal!!!    Congratulations on getting a new small frame Witness!!!   

Good Shooting, too!     That's a keeper, for sure. 

A couple of years ago, I went with a couple of the Armscor Production Tanfoglio Pistols, just because I wanted newer Small Frame Tanfoglio Pistols.
While they had their issues, I was able to fix those, and get past them.  The Finish on the Armscor Tanfoglio Pistols is a Black Parkerize.

Hopefully, EAA will keep these EA9's coming in! 

[tekarra]

Sweet!

[darink300zx]

i agree I hope EAA keeps bringing in the small frame 9s.  I bought this with not really knowing what to expect.  The buds description just said blued and didn't have a picture.  I was hoping for more of a blued finish, but the black isn't bad, I'm not an expert, but I'd say it's a black parkerize job like you described on the Armscors JWC. 

It's for sure a keeper.  Next time I have it out I'm going to try it with my 22 and 40 conversions that work very well on my PS.  Curious to see how they work on the steel frame. 

Darin.

[jwc007]

The Finish on the Armscor Tanfoglio Pistols is a Black Parkerize.

  The buds description just said blued and didn't have a picture.  I was hoping for more of a blued finish, but the black isn't bad, I'm not an expert, but I'd say it's a black parkerize job like you described on the Armscors JWC. 

Armscor/Tanfoglio MAP1 Full Size and Mid Size 9mm Pistols with Hogue Cz75 Grips and Mec-Gar AFC Cz75 17 round Magazines

[darink300zx]

Yeah, other than the ambi safety, it looks pretty much just like the full size map1. 

Darin.

[MikeLW]

Can someone brief me on "small frame" designation? I hope to get a Witness one day and I think I would like it to be the size / form of a CZ 75. Thanks!

[Bret]

Mike, the small vs large frame mainly has to do with the front to rear distance inside the magazine well.  Large frames have enough room to accept magazines for longer cartridges such as 45ACP, 10mm and 38Super.  Small frames only have enough room to accept magazines for shorter cartridges such as 9mm and 40S&W.  As you'd probably imagine, the distance from the back of the grip to the trigger is greater for a large frame, so the grip size feels larger.  Now here's where some confusion comes in.  9mm and 40S&W can be used in large frames provided special magazines are used which have spacer inserts to make up for the shorter overall lengths of these cartridges.  CZ75's are all small frames.  A CZ97 (their 45ACP) has a large frame.  Witness (Tanfoglio in Italy) now mostly manufacturers large frame pistols for sale in the US.  If you buy a large framed Witness, then you can actually get a kit from EAA to chamber it for another cartridge.  The kit would include the complete slide assembly and a magazine.  If you want to think about it in terms of another pistol, most all 1911 pistols have large frames.  The exception I can think of is the Springfield EMP.  If you have small hands, then you'd probably prefer a small frame pistol.  Otherwise, a small or large frame pistol will do.  Hope this helps and don't hesitate to ask more questions if you need to do so.

[darink300zx]

Bret pretty much nailed it.  Tanfogilio makes many models that are small frame, it's just that in 2005 EAA decided to stop importing the small frame and only import the large frame.  This move was to make the conversions simpler since the small frame slides won't function on the large frame guns and vice versa.  Prior to 2005 EAA imported the 9mm and .40 as small frame and .45, 10mm, and 38 super in the large frame.  As Bret pointed out the grip is a little larger for the large frame so some prefer the small frame. 

I assume sales must have slacked off pretty quick because EAA then started importing the small frame as the "classic" and then later for the polymer lovers, the PS, or Poly Special, that is small frame.  Now it appears they are bringing in the FAB92, which is small frame, and this all steel one the EA9b, which is also small frame. 

As for the conversions, it appears EAA doesn't much care about those who like them any longer.  A couple years ago the prices of the conversion kits (slide/barrel assembly and magazine) skyrocketed in price.  I remember they used to sell for 200 -250, now it pretty much costs the price of a new gun to get one of their conversion kits. 

I hadn't heard of inserts being used for the 9mm magazines in large frames.  I just use the 9mm magazines that they sell for the large frames.  Which interestingly is an easy way to tell if you're looking at a large or small frame 9mm or  .40 witness.  The large frame mags are easily identifiable.  See pic below. The large frame 9mm mag is on the left, small frame 9mm on right. 

[jwc007]

FYI- Prior to 2005, 9mm and .40 Witnesses shipped, were made with the small frame and were compatible with Cz75B Magazines.

In 2005, EAA decided to only import Large Frame 9mm and .40 Pistols, to reduce the stock needed for Caliber Conversion kits.
Small Frame 9mm's and to a lesser extent, .40's, continued to be made and marketed for the rest of the world.

EAA also decided to go with Sabatti as a Magazine supplier, instead of Mec-Gar, and Quality and Feeding issues ensued.
Sabatti could not fix the Large Frame 9mm Magazine Issues and MecGar was called in to make a Magazine that would work.
MercGar came up with an Anti-tilt Magazine Follower and feed reliability was then fixed.

IMO, The whole bruhaha could have been avoided by simply coming up with a spacer for the rear of the Large Frame Magazine Well and the original 9mm/.40 Magazines would have worked.

Occasionally, EAA would import small batches of "Witness Classics" which were small framed, to satisfy demand from some distributors and design purists, such as myself, who prefer the reliability of the original small frame design. Hence, my purchases of my Armscor MAP1 series Pistols, which are Tanfoglio Small Frame Pistols.

[MikeLW]

Yummy! Thanks a lot Ya'll for the tutorial. I get it now.

[Bret]

I hadn't heard of inserts being used for the 9mm magazines in large frames.  I just use the 9mm magazines that they sell for the large frames.

I wasn't clear enough.  The inserts I was talking about are inside the large frame magazines.  They are not inside the magazine wells to allow for use of small frame magazines in large frames.

[darink300zx]

I hadn't heard of inserts being used for the 9mm magazines in large frames.  I just use the 9mm magazines that they sell for the large frames.

I wasn't clear enough.  The inserts I was talking about are inside the large frame magazines.  They are not inside the magazine wells to allow for use of small frame magazines in large frames.

Oh, I see.  That makes sense.  Maybe those were the mags JWC was referring to that Sabatti made prior to Mecgar? 

[jwc007]

Maybe those were the mags JWC was referring to that Sabatti made prior to Mecgar?

No!  The only direct Frame insert made that I know of was made by myself for a local IPSC shooter with a large frame stock II, and was glued to the backside of the Magazine Well.
Not sure it would pass review for manufacture or service, but it worked when there were no other alternatives at the time to those Sabatti Magazines.
While the owner no longer competes, as far as I know, the Pistol still works.