Author Topic: Newbie Reloader  (Read 5348 times)

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Offline RandyMan

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Newbie Reloader
« on: December 24, 2016, 08:09:25 AM »
Well I have just started reloading. I feel I have read most of the stickies and have taken my time to try and learn. I'm hoping you will answer a few question.
Firearm
? My CZ pistol/rifle model is: SP-o1 manual saftey
? The caliber of my CZ is:  [9x19 Luger]
? My CZ has the following changes:  CGW pro package
? I use this CZ in the following ways:  General plinking
? I want ammo accurate at:  currently 7-10 yards
Components
? I've been reloading for months/years:  [Just started, 100 rounds completed]
? Fully describe the maker, weight, and type bullet:  [X treme 115gr RN]
? Powder (brand name and load range):  [Winchester 231, usually between 4.2gr to 4.8gr]
? Primer:  [CCI #500]
? My Cartridge Over-All Length is:  [aiming at 1.117", with results from 1.113 to 1.117]
?

Reloading Equipment
? Press brand and type:  [Lee Classic 4-Position Turret]
? Dies:  [Lee 4-die set]
? Scale:  [digital lyman 1500]
? Powder Measure:  [Lee Auto-Drum]
? Do you have access to a chronograph ?  [N]


 I first started out reloading a few rounds to the same OAL as the factory 9mm ammo I was using(1.10). They all worked well. After reading more and reloading a few hundred rounds.The question I have is about my load and OAL.
After doing a OAL test as you outline I came up with a Max OAL of 1.185. So after deducting.015 that end p at 1.17. Past plunk test fine.

SoI went to the hodgdon website to get data. What I come up with is this:
BULLET WEIGHT
115 GR. SPR GDHP
Starting Loads Maximum Loads
Manufacturer   Powder   Bullet Diam.   
C.O.L.
Grs.   
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester   231   .355"   1.125"      4.7   1,075   25,300 CUP      5.1   1,167   28,100 CUP

So I have loaded 100 rounds like this 4.7 g (231) @ 1.113 OAL is this safe to shoot? Concerns that the pressure maybe to high?

Sorry so long just looking to learn and be safe

Thank you

Randy

Offline painter

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2016, 08:30:49 AM »
It's my opinion that you've pretty much done things correctly. You've established max oal in your pistol, and you've started at the starting load. You've only reduced the oal from the data by about ten thousandths, and that is what starting load is for.

Those rounds are safe because you haven't varied the OAL from the published data enough to warrant a powder adjustment.

My only question to you would be why did you choose an OAL at 1.113 when your gun would accept the longer OAL in the published data?
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Offline RandyMan

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2016, 08:35:53 AM »
It's my opinion that you've pretty much done things correctly. You've established max oal in your pistol, and you've started at the starting load. You've only reduced the oal from the data by about ten thousandths, and that is what starting load is for.

Those rounds are safe because you haven't varied the OAL from the published data enough to warrant a powder adjustment.

My only question to you would be why did you choose an OAL at 1.113 when your gun would accept the longer OAL in the published data?

The only reason was because that was very close to the OAL of the factory rounds I had been using. Should I increase the OAL going forward? If so what are the advantages or disadvantage to a shorter OAL?

Offline painter

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2016, 08:54:50 AM »
I'd probably use a longer OAL.

I just looked at the data again, and you've gone from a HP to a RN. A RN bullet being longer should be loaded longer. In effect you've shortened the published data by more than the ten thousandths I originally estimated. I still feel the 100 rounds you've loaded are safe, because you're at the starting load. I should know better than to post after only one cup of coffee. [bangshead]

There is a thread around about bullet lengths. Find it, and compare the bullet length of the Gold Dot and the Xtreme you have. At that point you can make an OAL adjustment and continue your load development.
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but not the ability.

Offline Riptide439

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2016, 09:08:13 AM »
Welcome to the club RandyMan!

As painter mentioned, it looks like your proceedures so far are sound. Keep those same checks in place for your first several months. And as painter did, research and ask questions here and keep asking those questions here!

In your post, you mentioned accurate ammo. As you gain experience,  this is where Handloading becomes much more fun! ( ;) As long as you stay within reccomend powder wieghts, a change of your W231 from 4.3 to 4.4 may make a gigantic change in accuracy. Trying a different weight and/or mfg of bullets will also change your results.  When you change look for your new load data and ask yiur questions. Testing your loads at the range with your SP01 supported will give you the best results of each load you create.

Does this make sense to you?
75B 9mm Duel Tone * SP01 Shadow * SP01 Phantom * SP01 Tactical * 85 Combat * 2075 Rami * P-09 * P07 * 97BD Cajunized * P01
S&W 686-6 * Dan Wesson Valor .45 * SAR K2 .45 * Canick S120 9mm * Sig P226
452 Trainer * 452 Ultra Lux  x 2 * 452 Varmint Thumbhole*527 .223 Carbine*Rem 870 Express

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2016, 09:52:17 AM »
Welcome Aboard !!

Rest assured your rounds are safe; so "safe" they may not operate your pistol.

While nothing is "wrong", here are some tips that will improve what you're doing....

? Some 115gr bullets shoot great, but for the most part 124gr will shoot even better in the SP-01. PM me your address and I'll send you some 124gr to try.
? Stick with the RN for now. You'll have no feeding issues from RN. You'll also have fewer reloading issues due to the ogive shape.
? Get the OAL out in the 1.140" to 1.125" range. You'll stay out of trouble from seating too deeply and powder compression issues (not that W231 has any issues being compressed). And it will hopefully improve feeding.
? Here at the beginning, don't make 100 of anything or you may spend the afternoon with a kinetic hammer "unloading" them. I know it's exciting, but you need to throttle back your enthusiasm for awhile longer. Right now, 10 is the most you want to make of any single load.
? Really it's more like 6-8 rounds at each load level so we can find what load makes you gun accurate. If I were doing this it would be 6 rounds at 4.7gr, 6 at 4.9gr, 6 at 5.1gr, 6 at 5.3gr.... This is called a "ladder", "working up a load", or "incremental loads". Then you go to a range where you can rest your wrists on a sand bag or some sort of solid support and slow fire a new target for each load, starting at the lowest load. And move those targets out to 30 feet. That will give you physical evidence of what your gun likes.   THEN, you can load 100 rounds knowing that's the best !!
? So say for instance that 4.9gr seems to be the bomb for your gun/pistol/powder combo. Then you may wish to go back and slow fire on 3 new targets at 4.8gr, 4.9gr, and 5.0gr. So the first increments were "coarse" load tuning to get in the neighborhood, and the second "fine tuning".
? You'll REALLY want to write all this down in a lab notebook so that 5 years from now you can replicate the load for a buddy, or share here online. The way I do this is to have a page dedicated to each bullet. So the top of my page would read "115gr RN Xtreme", then directly under that the physical dimensions, and all the data from the OAL testing. Finally a line or 2 dedicated to the results of the ladders pin pointing which load did best. Don't forget the date! If you load multiple calibers, you'll want a book for each. Believe me there must be 150 bullets worth shooting in 9mm !!
? Finally, if the "best load" is too light to allow the slide to operate, then you may need to lighten the recoil springs. This will further tune the gun to the loads so that they work together. You'll want to bookmark the web page for Wolff Springs.

There's more, I just gotta make coffee right now.

Enjoy !  ;)
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2016, 10:03:58 AM »
The only reason was because that was very close to the OAL of the factory rounds I had been using.


You're your own "factory" now, brother !! No need to copy the compromises they made. You don't have to make it work good in every gun. You only have to find what works best in YOUR gun.

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Smitty79

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2016, 10:54:04 AM »
Chronographs are your friend.   The are also lots of fun.   I've used 2.   I like https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HTN5290/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 the best.   It has everything you need, it performs in a wider variety of weather conditions than the other one I used and the interface to my iPhone is great.

Wobbly uses notebooks.   I use spread sheets with cloud back up.    I use a different spread sheet for each powder with a tab for each bullet.   
Don't mistake my high post count for knowledge or wisdom.   I just like hearing myself type.

Offline RandyMan

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2016, 12:30:10 PM »
Thank you for all of the knowledge and insight. I will put it to good use.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


Online tdogg

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2016, 12:49:41 PM »
Welcome!

The seating depth is what is most important for safety considerations.  This determines the case volume which affects the pressure/velocity of the load.  If you match only the OAL and don't consider the change in bullet length you could get yourself in trouble with the change in seating depth/case volume.

Seating Depth = Case Length+Bullet Length - OAL

Bullet                   Case Length   Bullet Length     OAL           Seating Depth
Speer 115 GDHP   0.75                   0.525           1.125        0.15
Xtreme 115 RN     0.75                   0.553           1.113        0.19

So in your specific case you are seating the bullet ~.040 deeper than the published load data.  That is rather significant in terms of case volume (more volume is safer).  Since you don't have a chronograph to track velocity you are not able to determine if your loads are approaching the max velocity (or max pressure) for that powder and bullet weight combo.

In your case you could increase the OAL by .040" and load to 1.15" since you have found your maximum OAL for that bullet and barrel combo to be 1.17".  Alternatively you could estimate a reduction in the starting load to account for the change in seating depth/case volume.

Either way post up these great questions before you load up a bunch to save yourself the potential hassle of having to pull them.

Cheers,
Toby





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Offline RandyMan

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2016, 01:04:56 PM »
Welcome!

The seating depth is what is most important for safety considerations.  This determines the case volume which affects the pressure/velocity of the load.  If you match only the OAL and don't consider the change in bullet length you could get yourself in trouble with the change in seating depth/case volume.

Seating Depth = Case Length+Bullet Length - OAL

Bullet                   Case Length   Bullet Length     OAL           Seating Depth
Speer 115 GDHP   0.75                   0.525           1.125        0.15
Xtreme 115 RN     0.75                   0.553           1.113        0.19

So in your specific case you are seating the bullet ~.040 deeper than the published load data.  That is rather significant in terms of case volume (more volume is safer).  Since you don't have a chronograph to track velocity you are not able to determine if your loads are approaching the max velocity (or max pressure) for that powder and bullet weight combo.

In your case you could increase the OAL by .040" and load to 1.15" since you have found your maximum OAL for that bullet and barrel combo to be 1.17".  Alternatively you could estimate a reduction in the starting load to account for the change in seating depth/case volume.

Either way post up these great questions before you load up a bunch to save yourself the potential hassle of having to pull them.

Cheers,
Toby

So help me under stand something, how do you come up with" So in your specific case you are seating the bullet ~.040 deeper than the published load data" I just took Case length .75 and bullet of .553 = 1.303 the seat bullet .19 I believe would result in 1.113 OAL?
I'm currently ending up with 1.117 to 1.113 OAL . What I'm i missing?

Offline RandyMan

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2016, 01:10:59 PM »
Just an update I just returned from the range. Shot rounds of the above mentioned load and they performed great!!
Thank you for all your help.
As a side note I just started this hobby about 3-4 months go. Prior I had been involved heavily in other activities and their forums. This group of people inside this forum are by FAR the best I have EVER dealt with. The time, troubles and money this has saved me is unbelievable. For other newbies reading this I highly suggest you get involved, be respectful, read, listen and you will learn a lot.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2016, 01:22:40 PM »
Bullet                   Case Length   Bullet Length     OAL           Seating Depth
Speer 115 GDHP   0.75                   0.525           1.125        0.15
Xtreme 115 RN     0.75                   0.553           1.113        0.19


So help me under stand something, how do you come up with "So in your specific case you are seating the bullet ~.040 deeper than the published load data"


Anytime.

? The length of the bullet has everything to do with it. Knowing your OAL and the length of the 2 bullets, he calculated the seating depths for each cartridge. Then he calculated the difference between them... 0.19 minus 0.15 = .040"

? What saved you was that you began at the Starting Load. Due to the extra insertion depth, you're most probably already shooting at chamber pressures approximating mid-load. That's why they shot so well. So with this bullet at that OAL your REAL load range probably runs something like 4.5gr to 4.9gr. Your load "window" is still 0.4gr wide, but due to the deeper insertion causing higher chamber pressure, the window slid downward. Capisce ?

With a chrono you could tell for sure. You don't need one just yet, because we want you to stick closer to book loads at longer OALs while you hone your personal reloading process for the first several months.

Always err toward safety.

Hope this helps.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 08:18:37 PM by Wobbly »
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Online tdogg

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2016, 01:27:03 PM »
Randy,

Seating depth is how much of the bullet is inserted/hidden in the case when the bullet is seated.  What you are concerned with is the change in seating depth from the published load data you are using to develop your own recipe for your bullet and powder combination. 

Since the published load data (you are using to start your own load development) has a seating depth of 0.15" and you are currently seating your bullets 0.19" you are seating the bullet 0.040" deeper in the case (reduction in case volume = higher pressure).  If your were seating your bullet the same depth or using a shallower seating depth (less than 0.15"), then you would be safe to continue using the published load data without modification.

In your situation you are able to increase your OAL to match the published load data seating depth and consequently be able to use the data without any modification and that would be my suggestion. 

Cheers,
Toby



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Offline RandyMan

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Re: Newbie Reloader
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2016, 01:44:30 PM »
Tdogg
Thank you I reread and did the math I got it!
I guess I'm in the slow group LOL