Author Topic: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?  (Read 9993 times)

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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2016, 12:14:29 AM »
Plunk test results:
SP-01: 1.105
SP-01 Compact #1: 1.095 to 1.100
SP-01 Compact #2: 1.096 to 1.101

Sample Bullet Sizes:
0.654
0.652
0.6525
0.6525
0.654
0.654
0.654
0.652
0.654
0.652
0.652
0.652
0.652
0.652
0.653

Average length:  0.6528
Standard Deviation:  0.00092

Case length:       0.754   
Bullet length:       0.6528   
OAL:               1.1        1.095
Seating depth:  0.3068     0.3118

There's the data and info I've collected, what do you guys think? What's the safest seating depth for 9mm? Or is that the right measurement to even consider for staying safe when doing this? By no means am I asking to push any limits, I have always just followed load data and never had to get into this before.
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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2016, 01:17:52 AM »
I was doing more research for similar bullets. I opened my Lyman reloading manual 49th edition. Found the load data in this picture:



Found the length of the bullet and plugged it into the seating depth equation.

Case length           0.754
Bullet length          0.541
OAL                        1.075
Seating depth       0.3318

This is deeper than my seating depth for a bullet of the same weight. The difference is that it is .355 Diameter and jacketed. So... Would I be safe to use this load data and do a work up? I could seat to the same seating depth but since my bullet is coated wouldn't I need to lower the powder charge by 0.2 grains or so? BTW I'll use 700X for now since BE-86 isn't in here.

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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2016, 02:24:24 AM »
Loaded some rounds withOUT powder and primers. Group on the left was around 1.090, middle 4 was around 1.095, and the group of 4 on the far right was around 1.100. I cycled these through my SP-01 Compact that had the shortest plunk test. They all chambered and I could not find any markings from the bullets smashing into engagement with the rifling. I am not trying to push my luck, just testing. It seems like everything would chamber fine by loading to 1.095 OAL.  That being said, I await guidance from the Masters on my last post about the Lyman load data for that JHP round and seating depth. Thanks again everyone for your help as I figure out this new aspect of reloading.









PS- Red is the only color he coats in right now. I didn't chose or request it to match my grips.

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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2016, 07:16:16 AM »
First, a few tips:

  • When discussing your plunk test results, you might want to specify working OAL or maximum OAL.  I'm pretty confident the 1.095 you list is maximum, but I would hate to start talking based on that assumption, then find out it was actually 1.110 maximum, and that 1.095 plunk test result reflects a .015 reduction.
  • When you say you found the bullet length for that data, that data appears to be for an unspecified 125gr JHP.  How did you find the bullet length for an unspecified bullet?  I mean, it looks like a Sierra 125gr JHP to me, but unless I could verify that, I wouldn't make any assumptions.
  • When you are calculating seating depth, you might just want to use .750 for case length.  What you listed -- .754 -- is the SAAMI spec, but very few 9mm cases are that long, even when brand new.  Since you want to use one number, .750 makes the math easier in the event that you find yourself wanting to calculate a seating depth without the aid of a calculator or spreadsheet. ;)

All right, so what I'm seeing here is (.750 + .654) - .1.095 = .309 seating depth.  That is deeper than you typically want to be.  The case walls definitely start thickening by .300 with 9mm cases of all manufacture.  If the shank is seated deeper than that, it will start to bow out the case walls, or swage the base of the bullet, or both.  You want to avoid those things.  HOWEVER, if the base of the bullet is beveled, which is the case with this bullet, you can get your base seated a little deeper than .300 before that starts to happen.  Not much, but .309 is doable with some cases.  I seat the MBC 125gr SWC to a depth of .310 for my CZ.

NOW, you say that you loaded and checked a bunch of dummies, and every 1.095 passed the plunk test.  Your data indicates those are very close to rifling engagement, and your normal variation from one stroke to the next should land some in the lands eventually. 

I would load a dummy (resize, flare, seat, taper, crimp) to 1.11 and plunk test it to make sure you have your max OAL correct.  If it plunks and spins freely, load to 1.13, plunk to verify it's too long, then start seating deeper and deeper until it plunks and spins freely.  If you  verify the max OAL without rifling engagement is, in fact, 1.095 and CZ with the shortest throat, then I would say this bullet is probably a bad option for the CZ and other short-throated pistols.  You need a cushion, and if you knock off .010 and get that seating depth down to .319, that's just SUPER deep.

You asked about using JHP data.  The answer is no.  You use the closest data available.  You match bullet weight first, and surface material second.  Match coated or bare lead with lead data.  Match plated with plated data (or to lead OR jacketed -- not both -- based on manufacturer recommendation, if no plated data exists).  Match jacketed with jacketed data.  THEN match profile third.  If you have data for a jacketed 124gr RN and data for a jacketed hollowpoint, and you are loading a jacketed hollowpoint, use the data for the hollowpoint. The only time you would want to use jacketed data for lead is when there is no lead data available, period, and even THEN you would want to do a significant reduction of the charge window. 

A seating depth comparison between two lead bullets of the same weight is helpful.  A seating depth comparison between an LRN and  JHP is self-deception.

Finally, and VERY IMPORTANT, please weigh those bullets.  Someone mentioned earlier that they look weird.  To me, they look like they're not 124gr.  In the picture with the Berry's RN, if that Berry's is 124gr, I can't imagine those coated bullets are also 124gr.  The coated ones look huge.  The more I look at them, the more they look like they're 147gr.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 07:34:57 AM by IDescribe »

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2016, 07:41:58 AM »
WAIT A MINUTE!


What did I miss?  You originally posted the following picture of what looks like 124/125gr RNFP:






THEN you posted a picture of these bullets that you bought, which look like 147gr TCFP:



Did I miss something?  Are we still talking about the same bullets?


[Mods corrected second bullet photo]
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 07:56:30 AM by Wobbly »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2016, 07:59:04 AM »
So... Would I be safe to use this load data and do a work up?


Absolutely NOT !!

Use lead data for lead bullets; Jacketed data for jacketed bullets.

 ;)
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2016, 08:01:07 AM »
I see Wobbly and Painter lurking.  Hopefully one of them will clear up my confusion.  Did he switch bullets mid-thread?  Or did I miss something?

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2016, 08:13:54 AM »
Oh, yes. He did swap bullets on us.

I think he's hitting the juice 24 hours early !!  O0
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Offline painter

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2016, 08:16:56 AM »
Sometimes it gets confusing.  ;D

Those don't look like H&S.
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2016, 08:20:43 AM »
Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead with red bullets.

They'd clash with my handbag.   O0
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2016, 11:09:34 AM »
I need to go and weigh them now. In my vigor to check plunk tests and do all that other (now meaningless research) I never stopped to take in that size difference. As for the shape difference, when I picked them up he said that he had a slightly modified casting die compared to the ones in the picture. Basically he has been using the new die for a long while and must have forgot to update his site. That being said it looks like they are too big, let me go weigh them.

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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2016, 11:17:48 AM »
Well freak, he handed me a little test bag of 148 gr bullets (no sticker on it w weight and size, figured he weighed them out and out them in the bag when I showed up). Well, a lesson in conducting my own QC. Ugh, I've wasted everyone's time and effort. Sorry comrades!

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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2016, 11:21:51 AM »
BTW, Idescribe thank you for taking the time to answer and or address my many questions and comments (even though it turns of the bullets were the wrong weight). It was very helpful to hear, I know it takes time for you guys to write detailed responses like that. And thanks to all of you who always help out!

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« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 11:27:17 AM by Scarlett Pistol »
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2016, 02:01:01 PM »
No worries.  I'm happy to have caught the error in bullet weight.  Loading a 147gr lead bullet seated to a depth of .310+ with 124gr load data might have made for a bad day.  This is why we check and double-check. ;)

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Possible to Interchange RN for RNFP?
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2016, 04:10:26 PM »
THE CORRECT BULLETS:
PS- this looks terrible on the app since I put the data into html tables. View on the browser to make the data easier to read, sorry about that.

I swung by and got the correct bullets from H&S this morning. I could tell he was super embarrassed and he apologized profusely. He readily made things right, so moving along to the important stuff... Here is a picture of the correct 125 gr RNFP next to a Berry's plated 124 gr RN.



I took length measurements from a sample and I also did the plunk test. Then loaded a few dumby rounds to validate my Max OAL from the plunk test. Here's the numbers for length, Max OAL, and two working OAL's (just for the heck of it).

125 gr H&S
Avg Bullet Lngth0.5824
Standard Dev0.0007
Max OAL 1.085
Adjusted OAL (Max - 0.015) 1.07
Adjusted OAL (Max - 0.010) 1.075
Using First Working OAL
Case Length 0.75
Bullet Length 0.582
OAL 1.07
Seating Depth 0.262
Using Second Working OAL
Case Length 0.75
Bullet Length 0.582
OAL 1.075
Seating Depth 0.257
SIDE NOTE: Having to translate tables into HTML coded tables is annoying, anyone know of a tool that does it automatically?

Good news: There is lead load data for my two powders (700-X and BE-86).
Bad news: They both have longer OAL.
Good news: The seating depth now seems to be safe with my working OAL
Good news: I have seen seating depths in this range for this bullet weight. The seating depths for the bullets were deeper than mine with working OAL.
Bad news: Those are generally for jacketed hollow points, so that is not usable load data.

Summary: My seating depth seems to be within the safe limits with both working OAL (so I would use the shorter one to be safe). Without load data this means I would have to make work ups on my own. When reading and asking about this on the forum it seems like a Chronograph is a good tool, but I have also gotten direction that there are other better signs of reaching the top of pressure windows. That being said...

I am assuming that since my OAL is much shorter than the load data that exists I have greatly reduce my starting loads. Should I just go buy a chronograph or are there other legitimate ways to do this safely? If so, please share so I can have clear directions (links, articles, other posts, anything you have I'll take). Thanks again for sticking this one out with me and being patient, and thank you again for the help!

125 gr LCN700-X 1.125" OAL
STARTING LOAD
2.9 gr899 FPS 23,700 PSI
MAXIMUM LOAD
3.4 gr1,003 FPS 31,600 PSI
Source:Hodgdon Reloading Site
125 gr Lead RNBE-86 1.120" OAL
STARTING LOAD
5.1 grNA NA PSI
MAXIMUM LOAD
5.7 gr1,179 FPS NA PSI
Source:Alliant Reloader's Guide - Online/td] 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 04:14:41 PM by Scarlett Pistol »
"In God I trust. All others must supply data."