First time CZ owner/reloader

[fdmyrick73]

WOW! This thread went from being helpful to me being treated like I was stupid...

[M1A4ME]

I started (in the 9MM) with plated bullets because, for one, the bullets I found were cheaper, two, I didn't know that plated wasn't as tough/good as jacketed and was a tad more difficult to load due to the fragile plating.  Now that I've "found" Precision Delta (and just recently another brand I can't remember but cost about the same) I'm not using plated bullets, until I get around to using up the last of the 147's I got when I was shooting the M&Ps that shot those well.

As for the OP's questions about bullet length, buddy, you've got to check different brands and bullet types even if they are the same weight.  It's not the overall length of the finished round that will cause you problems (if too long), it's how far up the bullet the .355" or .356" diameter of the base of the bullet reaches towards the tip. 

Different bullet different bullet makers and different types of bullets can be longer, or shorter, from the base of the bullet to the point where it starts to taper towards the bullet tip/front - even then the rate of the taper can be an issue.

Most (if not all) CZ 9MM chambers don't have much distance from where the case mouth stops and the barrel diameter will cause the bullet to contact it.  There are threads on this forum that show a diagram of the chamber to better explain what I'm fumbling with here.  I just don't have a quick way to find them.  Some of the guys here have supplied the rest of us with a lot of good info but you may have to search to find it.

Anyway, that's what the plunk test is for.  You make a dummy round and see if that bullet, seated to a certain cartridge overall length will chamber in your pistol's barrel without problems.  I can tell you from experience that even every CZ is not the same.  Ammo that plunked in my wife's Compact (used to be mine, but that's a whole other story) would not chamber in my P09.  Got the bullet hung up in the barrel (contacted the lands so hard it stuck) that when I finally got the slide to move back the bullet stayed in the barrel.  The P09 didn't get fired that day.  I brought it home that way and pushed the bullet out here.

Calculations are a start (and you should probably keep them as notes in your reloading log book - you are keeping a reloading log book - right?)  That way you'll know where you've been, what worked, what didn't, what you did about it, etc.  You also write down the load data you used.  There's probably a thread here about keeping reloading logs as it's a good idea.  I can go right back to mine, the next time I load 115 grain Precision Delta hollow points and see exactly what I've been doing to make sure my rounds work in my guns.

[painter]

I show 115gn lead/plated bullets and TiteGroup having start loads of 2.6-3.9gn and MAX loads of 4.0-4.3gn, so, for lead bullet data, you are at MAX load (so I hope you worked the load up).

Where are you getting your data? From the link posted in a prior reply the base load is 3.9----

We asked you how you determined your OAL first.

Maybe he'll answer when you do.

The gentleman you're asking has been reloading for years, and likely owns hardcover manuals from several sources. Data is simply a report, and can vary depending on numerous factors. The most recent online data seems to be written by lawyers, not ballisticians.

So...will you let us know how you determined your oal?

WOW! This thread went from being helpful to me being treated like I was stupid...

Don't take what he says the wrong way. The fact you're being evasive doesn't help.

[fdmyrick73]

I got my length from measuring the winchester loads I've been firing, and researching the minimum oal listed in data sources.
I'm within the two and it fits in my action/barrel just fine.
Sorry but I'm not familiar with the other terms folks are using.

[painter]

I got my length from measuring the winchester loads I've been firing, and researching the minimum oal listed in data sources.
I'm within the two and it fits in my action/barrel just fine.
Sorry but I'm not familiar with the other terms folks are using.

...and what we're telling you is your method is wrong. It may, or may not work for this particular bullet, but if you continue to use it you'll end up hurting yourself, or others. You have no idea what the allowable tolerance is, or what you actually should be aiming for.

You need to perform a push test. Take an unsized case fired from your gun, insert a Berry's bullet part way, and insert it into the barrel of your gun. (barrel removed)

Push the case down until it stops, and then remove the cartridge. If it's stuck, use a dowel to push it out from the muzzle. Measure it. Repeat this several times until the results are consistent. That is the max OAL for that bullet in your barrel. You then deduct .010-.015" from that number to determine your target OAL. That is the only safe way to do this, and it's absolutely necessary for every new bullet in your gun.

Is there anything I've said you don't understand? I'm not belittling you. I want you to understand what I'm saying and why.

[fdmyrick73]

I have made a round that measures 1.165 oal with no powder and no primer.
It fits in my barrel perfectly.
Isn't this what you are asking me to do?

[M1A4ME]

You tube video showing a plunk test.  Hope it helps.  As you go along, you'll learn more and more, just like when doing anything else.  Experience.  But you want good experiences, even if you never forget a bad experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACQuzJGvUIs

[fdmyrick73]

My rounds pass this test.

[tdogg]

FD,

The "Push" test is outlined here:  http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0

This is what you do to figure out how long you can load your specific bullet in your specific barrel.  It is not the only method to determine your max OAL but it is really easy and free to perform.  Just make sure you find a fired case that has just enough friction to hold the bullet in the case.

The "Plunk" test shown by M1A is what you do to finished cartridges to confirm they aren't too long for your specific barrel.

So when you say you made a dummy cartridge that measures at an OAL of 1.165 and fits in your barrel perfectly did it pass the "Plunk" test?  Even though it passed the "Plunk" test doesn't give us the answer of what your max OAL for that bullet and that barrel combination.

The "Push" test is needed to answer that question.  The reason for the push test is to ensure you are not loaded right the Max OAL.  With any process there is variability and ensuring you are sufficiently pulled back off the lands (~0.015-0.020 inches shorter than your Max OAL) is for safety.  You need to make sure your don't run long and into the lands just with normal process variability (especially with TG powder that is unforgiving).

That said if you have a dummy cartridge using the specific bullet that "fits" in your barrel at 1.165.  You should be safe loading at an OAL of 1.14-1.15.

Cheers,
Toby

[fdmyrick73]

So is everyone concerned with the width of the bullet? I thought we were talking length...

[fdmyrick73]

Common wisdom, around here anyway, is the 1.000 is the absolute minimum for 9mm.

Speer uses 1.125 as the factory length for the Gold Dot ammo, which is similarly shaped to your flat nose, so I wouldn't sorry about the length you're using. Check the Hodgdon reloading data. They list the 115gr Gold Dot at 1.125 over 4.5-4.8 gr of Titegroup. I think you could up your load.

Is anything in the above quote wrong? If so, then what?

[IDescribe]

WOW! This thread went from being helpful to me being treated like I was stupid...

No, not like you are stupid -- like you are stubborn, and like you don't know what you're doing, both of which are fair.  If you stick with this and actually learn to practice this activity with knowledge and care, you will come to realize how little you know right now.  You don't realize this, but when you tell us that you determined your OAL by what Winchester used for a completely different profile bullet, you've told us that you have NO IDEA what you're doing.  I'd call that ass-backward, but ass-backward implies some sort of connection between Winchester's OAL and what you should be loading at, when in fact there is virtually no connection between the two.

If you are unhappy with how you are being treated, and you can't figure out why, browse the following five responses to your thread:

YOU need to do a push/plunk&spin test to determine your maximum OAL for that bullet....  If you don't know how to do that, there's a stickie at the top of this AMMO subforum titled "How to determine MAX OAL for you CZ pistol". 

Did you actually push test that bullet in your barrel to determine if it will chamber at the length you've chosen?

Yes, you didn't give us your push test results.  What are your push test results?  What is your MAX OAL with THAT bullet?

You need to perform a push test.

FD,

The "Push" test is outlined here:  http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0

...and understand that when you repeatedly decline to engage the advice you are given, that people can and will become frustrated, and it will show through.  What kind of motivation do you expect people to have to help you if you don't respond to the most basic request for you to perform a max OAL test, a simple process that you have declined to either perform or report on, not once, but FIVE TIMES?

I have made a round that measures 1.165 oal with no powder and no primer.
It fits in my barrel perfectly.
Isn't this what you are asking me to do?

No, what we're asking you to do is described in a thread that is stickied in this forum on how to determine max OAL, a thread that you have been directed to more than once.

[painter]

I have made a round that measures 1.165 oal with no powder and no primer.
It fits in my barrel perfectly.
Isn't this what you are asking me to do?

Not exactly. I also want to know how you built it. Did you use your barrel, or was this another calculation?

[1SOW]

For me,  they'd start with 115/124g FMJ ball/round nose ammo,  then JHP,  then JFP,  then plated,  then other.
I haven't worked up to "other" yet. 

[painter]

Common wisdom, around here anyway, is the 1.000 is the absolute minimum for 9mm.

Speer uses 1.125 as the factory length for the Gold Dot ammo, which is similarly shaped to your flat nose, so I wouldn't sorry about the length you're using. Check the Hodgdon reloading data. They list the 115gr Gold Dot at 1.125 over 4.5-4.8 gr of Titegroup. I think you could up your load.

Is anything in the above quote wrong? If so, then what?

Yes...The idiot that said it assumed you had push tested that bullet. [bangshead]
You come here for help, and we're trying to make sure you learn a safe process. That's what this is... a process... and you're being obtuse and obstinate.
I'm done.