Author Topic: First time CZ owner/reloader  (Read 9379 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7589
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2017, 05:22:51 PM »
Guys, take a breath, or three.

When you're reloading, you're putting little tiny bombs together.  A typical 9MM will run up around 32,000 to 34,000 psi and it goes off right in your hand.  Over and over and over as you shoot the magazine empty.

Now the pistol is set up to work with the brass case to contain that pressure so that the only thing that leaves the pistol is the bullet and burning gases out the muzzle and the hot empty out of the ejection port/slide.

Any failure to contain that pressure can destroy that pistol and possibly parts of the person holding the pistol.

That's all the guys here are trying to do.  Help new guys insure they are making SAFE reloads that will function well in their guns.  The internet is full of pictures, and stories, of people who put unsafe reloads together and fired them, or bought unsafe reloads from someone else and fired them.  Destroyed guns, bleeding hands/fingers/arms/cheeks/foreheads, etc.

No one wants to see that happen to anyone else.  You only get a measure of someone else's skill and experience from what you read here when you yourself get enough experience to begin understanding how what they tell you really works.  To some measure, that's true for all of us.  I continue to run into things I've not seen before an I've been reloading since 1978 for several rifles, pistols, revolvers, calibers.  Got something funny going on now I'm going to start another thread about.

If someone explains and you don't understand, first think about what you read, maybe you'll figure it out, maybe not - but it never hurts to come on back and ask for more details and try to better understand it.  Sometimes, we don't understand everything we think we know (my dad used to say that to me and my brothers).
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline fdmyrick73

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2017, 06:19:52 PM »
I apologize for my rookieness
I know what you guys meant, but don't understand the terminology.
Geesh, why is there so much conflicting data out there? No wonder folks get hurt.

I'm sorry if I've seemed like an idiot but so much knowledge was thrown at me so fast and it all conflicted what I'd read in manuals etc.

I did the two tests.
RESULTS BELOW.


PUSH test is 1.060
PLUNK test at this measurement passes
What now?

Also, what can I do with the loads I've already made? Just seat the bullets deeper?
What about powder load???? They are loaded with 4.0 grains of TITEGROUP.

Offline Grendel

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8956
  • 'Live Long, and Prosper'
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2017, 07:11:59 PM »
Let's keep it civil, please.
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Inter arma enim silent leges - Cicero

I wasn't born in America, but I got here as fast as I could.

Offline nicky

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 973
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2017, 08:08:53 PM »
If what you got is the max OAL from the push test, then you need to deduct .010-.015 from that. That will be your working OAL for that bullet in that pistol.

I know what I would do with those bullets you already made but I am not confident enough to advise you. Someone with more experiance should be along to answer that for you.

Offline Wobbly

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12817
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2017, 09:28:43 PM »
I've been really interested in this thread, but I was hesitant to jump in and flood the OP with one more voice. Things seemed to have calmed down now.

I load the Berry 124gr FP at 1.065", which is the Max OAL for that bullet in my SP-01 barrel. I don't have any Berry 115gr FP around, but assuming the conical noses are identical (the only difference being the bullet's body length), the Max OAL would need to be the same too.



So I think fdmyrick73 is saying that 1.060" is the Max OAL, not simply the "push test" result. I was scratching my head wondering how he got a usable OAL at 1.165" in the earlier posts. That simply did not make any sense at all.

But don't let me put words in your mouth.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 09:33:26 PM by Wobbly »
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Wobbly

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12817
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2017, 09:41:12 PM »
The problem with the conical FP is that the sharp shoulder of the bullet collides with the end of the freebore of the barrel, just like the bullet on the far left in this cartoon...



...the full diameter of the bullet can't be brought out of the case further than about 0.035". So it's the presence of a sharp shoulder that limits the OAL in a CZ pistol on all FP bullets.

Hope this helps.  ;)
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline copemech

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2017, 11:35:47 PM »
I apologize for my rookieness
I know what you guys meant, but don't understand the terminology.
Geesh, why is there so much conflicting data out there? No wonder folks get hurt.

I'm sorry if I've seemed like an idiot but so much knowledge was thrown at me so fast and it all conflicted what I'd read in manuals etc.

I did the two tests.
RESULTS BELOW.


PUSH test is 1.060
PLUNK test at this measurement passes
What now?

Also, what can I do with the loads I've already made? Just seat the bullets deeper?
What about powder load???? They are loaded with 4.0 grains of TITEGROUP.

I am happy to see some progress here as well. Do tell us how you did arrive at that OAL and if you deducted tour .010-.015 allowance for clearance.

I will remind you as well that in the reloading process the OAL will vary a bit from bullet to bullet and you may plan upon a variance so you need a decent window to work within. This is why .015 is a good number.

I am also glad to see Wobbly chime in here as he has these great illustrations. He also has one that illustrates your window and limits.

Keep a couple things in mind here.

1- Where these things come from and in NATO standards, they do not use anything other than a standard RN bullet.

2- Most all standard commercial FMJ practice rounds you can buy attend to the same dimensions, but if you get into defense bullet of certain weights and design they may not work well in your gun. This is where a simple plunk test may come in handy as well.

3- Even on a RN bullet they are not all the same! The OGIVE  may vary, such as in Wobblys illustration between a RN and a RNFP. Nothing says the curvature has to be the same between the makers, so the lesson here is if you change bullets, check things again before assuming anything.

Offline fdmyrick73

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2017, 01:25:20 AM »
The 1.060 has had nothing deducted.
So Taking .0150 off of that, I should be making my rounds OAL to 1.0450 correct?
Now, what to do with those other 50 rounds I have?

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5847
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2017, 04:52:29 AM »
Now, what to do with those other 50 rounds I have?

Buy a bullet puller and disassemble those rounds. NEVER EVER reseat bullets that have already been seated and crimped.
The bullets can be loaded in freshly sized and primed cases if they have not been deformed in the crimp process and the cases can be resized as they are for another round as well.
If you size die also decaps then remove the decapping pin so you can just resize those cases and move on.
I notice in an earlier post you mentioned small pieces of brass coming off the cases during crimping. Be sure that your crimp die is properly adjusted. You just want to remove the bell that was created during expanding what you don't want to do is turn the case neck in to the point that it digs into the bullet.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 04:59:06 AM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline fdmyrick73

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2017, 05:15:21 AM »
Now, what to do with those other 50 rounds I have?

Buy a bullet puller and disassemble those rounds. NEVER EVER reseat bullets that have already been seated and crimped.
The bullets can be loaded in freshly sized and primed cases if they have not been deformed in the crimp process and the cases can be resized as they are for another round as well.
If you size die also decaps then remove the decapping pin so you can just resize those cases and move on.
I notice in an earlier post you mentioned small pieces of brass coming off the cases during crimping. Be sure that your crimp die is properly adjusted. You just want to remove the bell that was created during expanding what you don't want to do is turn the case neck in to the point that it digs into the bullet.

OK. I have a bullet puller and I'm following the instructions. But, actually how hard am I supposed to strike the puller to remove the bullet? It doesn't seem to budge. Should I just mark these rounds an trash and store them somewhere or and start over?
Also, from the data I've seen, 4.0 grains of TITEGROUP is correct. Can anyone verify this for me please?

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5847
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2017, 06:47:26 AM »
Give it a good square wack on a concrete floor. You won't hurt anything.They will come out.
Sorry I can't help on the data. I don't use Titegroup and I have nothing with any data that includes that powder.

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7589
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2017, 06:54:36 AM »
I smack my bullet puller on the concrete floor of the garage so hard (sometimes) I think it's going to break.  So far, it hasn't.  Why can't they make car parts out of this same plastic???

If you see it deforming the bullet nose you can fold up a cleaning patch and stuff down in there to pad the bullet nose when it pops out of the brass case.  That'll make getting the powder back out (after each pull) a little messier (I use a big old plastic coffee jug lid from Folgers or Maxwell House to dump the powder and bullet in and then move on to the next cartridge that needs the bullet pulled.  Then I pick the bullets out and bend the lid into enough of a "V" to pour the powder back in the RIGHT powder can.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline fdmyrick73

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2017, 07:01:59 AM »
I smack my bullet puller on the concrete floor of the garage so hard (sometimes) I think it's going to break.  So far, it hasn't.  Why can't they make car parts out of this same plastic???

If you see it deforming the bullet nose you can fold up a cleaning patch and stuff down in there to pad the bullet nose when it pops out of the brass case.  That'll make getting the powder back out (after each pull) a little messier (I use a big old plastic coffee jug lid from Folgers or Maxwell House to dump the powder and bullet in and then move on to the next cartridge that needs the bullet pulled.  Then I pick the bullets out and bend the lid into enough of a "V" to pour the powder back in the RIGHT powder can.
ok then. I thought I should be following the instructions that say never hit it on concrete but use a wooden block. I'll give it a try on the floor.
Thanks.

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7589
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2017, 10:45:45 AM »
Mine is a green one (RCBS???) and I have beat wooden blocks (pine) to pieces with it.  I guess you ought to wear safety glasses, just in case.

I had a spent primer stuck in the end of mine for awhile.  I didn't see it on the floor till I hit it and drove it up into the plastic of the bullet puller.  I used it like that for awhile and finally had to get some pliers and a knife to dig it loose and pull it out.

I usually start out with a whack or two.  If the bullet doesn't start to move, I give it a whack! or two.  Then I look at it again.  If the bullet isn't moving I give it WHACK or two and take another look at it.  Once it starts moving it usually doesn't take more WHACKS, just another two or three whacks! to drop the bullet out of the case.

It's an experience thing   After one or two you have the feel for how hard to hit with it.

For what it's worth, this is a very good reason to load up small batches of test loads, working up from your minimum load towards the maximum load and then shoot them the same way, starting at the lowest powder charge and working up while watching for pressure signs.  Using that kinetic bullet puller to do more than a few isn't fun.  One time, under poor lighting conditions that I've since corrected, I loaded up about 350 .357 SIG loads with 124 grain hollow points and AA#5 powder.  The next day I went back out to do some more reloading and with better light noticed I had the scale set up for 5 more grains of powder than I'd thought (I use the scale to check powder charges while adjusting the powder measure and then again for random weight checks while charging the cases with powder).  Now I use a small bright flashlight pointed directly at the beam on the scale to make sure the 5 grain weight adjustment piece is in the right notch vs. the shadow that fooled me that time.  Using a kinetic bullet puller to pull down 350 rounds is no fun.  Took me about 3 days of working a box or two each afternoon to get them all.

Hope this helps.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline fdmyrick73

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: First time CZ owner/reloader
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2017, 10:49:45 AM »
So the suggestion is to pull all the bullets out with the "blue" puller I have. Ok.
Is it possible for me to just seat the bullets further?
I have a very light crimp on them and I tried re-seating one round and it moved with nearly no effort at all. Is this a bad idea?