First time CZ owner/reloader

[nicky]

I have never used Titgroup but after looking at the load data, what I didn't want to tell fdmyrick in my previous post is that I would have seated those bullets deeper and shot them. I am pretty confident in my reloading practices but not always enough to give advice.

Could someone explain to me a how seating a bullet deeper will decrease neck tension. I can understand the crimp scraping the plating,coating, etc. but the case is sized past the depth of the seated bullet.

What am I missing?

[Boris_LA]

Seating bullet deeper will decrease the case volume under the bullet. This may lead to excessive pressure. TG is very sensitive to it and situation may become dangerous. Depend on the current available volume the round may be already load to max pressure or close to that, therefore I would start the new ladder with minimum powder charge to verify where in the loading window the current charge fails. It its still far from the max, seating bullet deeper may be the option. If its already close to max, disassembly and redo with less powder and shorter OAL is in order.

[M1A4ME]

He's using plated bullets?  I'd expect a crimp that might not have damaged the plating to pretty well strip a spot around the bullet if the bullet was pushed deeper past the crimp.

Maybe not.  I've never tried seating plated bullets deeper.  But they are more fragile than jacketed bullets.

What's the difference, if any, between reducing the volume under the bullet by seating it deeper vs. leaving it alone and having the bullets possibly make contact when chambered - in pressure increase I mean?

Has that ever been tested and results published anywhere?  Or would it be so variable based on bullets/powder/cartridge/weapon fired in that no one has spent that much time and money on it?

[copemech]

I tend to agree with ID.

The 1.060 less the setback(1.045) as a MAX for the gun does sound a bit too short as compared to any I have seen or heard of for a 115 gr bullet, however I am still not sure the exact bullet in question, as I possibly missed it somewhere.

4.0 gr of Titegroup is still a light charge for  115gr bullet, I would not worry too much about that.

For the OP, we do have a list around here somewhere of dimensions of a wide variety of bullets. If one does a bit of measurement and comparison of the dimentions of similar bullets as compared to the published data, he may feel much safer about his use of unlisted bullets. BUT, you need to know the lengthe of the bullets you are comparing and compare the seating depth.

SEATING DEPTH is wht effects case pressure and is as important as the OAL! The balancing act of cramming all the stuff into a limited space!

So, if my 9mm case is .075 in long, and I have a bullet that is .500 in long, and my working length as measured with that bullet is 1.125

WHAT IS MY SEATING DEPTH?

Tell us what you get!!!!!

And yes, I am lazy too!

[IDescribe]

Seating bullet deeper will decrease the case volume under the bullet. This may lead to excessive pressure.

This is one of those truths that is often misapplied.  YES, when all else is equal, shortening OAL increases peak pressure.  This is relevant when you are looking at a pre-existing load that has already been worked up.  If someone tells you "Hey, 124gr JHP with 4.3gr of Titegroup, and you have to use an OAL of 1.075 in your short-throated CZ, but the load was given to you by a guy loading it to 1.12 in his VP9, then YES, now there is an issue of concern.

But that's not the case in this thread.  This guy is working up a load with a light bullet that is seated shallow and is at the bottom of the load window.  This "truth" is not applicable to the OP's situation.

[IDescribe]

What's the difference, if any, between reducing the volume under the bullet by seating it deeper vs. leaving it alone and having the bullets possibly make contact when chambered - in pressure increase I mean?

It depends on how much difference in OAL you're talking about.  In the one test I've run to demonstrate simply that it happens, I used N320 and a Montana Gold 124gr JHP.  In that test, the velocity change from a shift of .02 in OAL was worth about the same as .1gr.  And if I remember correctly, the difference between being a hair out of the lands and being .01 into the lands was also comparable to about .1gr of powder.

But he wasn't just .01 into the lands based on his original OAL.  He was up to .06 into the lands, which might have ended up being .03 into the lands and .03 of setback.  WHo knows?

[1SOW]

With just 50 cartridges,  I'd seat them deeper and shoot 'em.
 Unless you've put a heavy taper crimp on yours,  you won't find problems as a range target load.  I checked my BRY sample box of bullets,  and the 115gr FP has a nice rounded edge base like most BRY bullets.  It requires virtually no belling to seat it easily with no damage.   If your taper crimp at the case mouth reads .377" or more ,  it likely won't even scratch the bullet to reseat it.  When/IF you reseat those loads DON'T USE ANY taper crimp.  Let them just slide in deeper.  There is no belling to remove.

Use the push and  plunk test to find a SAFE oal in your pistol.  Your load with a 115gr BRY FP will be ok to shoot down into the 1.060"/1.065" oal range.

I've loaded the 124 version of that bullet at 1.065 and it shot okay.  I haven't tried the 115gr versions,  so test them for max oal and subtract .010' - .015" to stay safe.
.

[IDescribe]

I tend to agree with ID.

The 1.060 less the setback(1.045) as a MAX for the gun does sound a bit too short as compared to any I have seen or heard of for a 115 gr bullet

It doesn't seem short because of the weight of the bullet.  It seems short because in the past, people here have seated the Berry's FP in the range of 1.06 - 1.08, with their true MAX number being up to  .015 longer than that.  I just want him to double-check and verify. 

[copemech]

Once this fellow figures out where he is REALLY at with all this stuff and double checking and a lot of how to do it he will be a happy camper. If he survives.

[fdmyrick73]

Once this fellow figures out where he is REALLY at with all this stuff and double checking and a lot of how to do it he will be a happy camper. If he survives.

I know where I am with all this, just have a headache from all the conflicting information given.
PUSH and PLUNK tests(multiple times) confirms the bullet OAL to be needed is 1.045. According to Hodgdon Titegroup 3.9-4.3 grains---as per their reply to my question. I'm going to back off to 3.9. I have taped up the other loads and will not be using them. YET. I'm really concerned because so many people are conflicting on their opinions of reseating those rounds.
ONE THING I AM LEARNING QUICKLY---there is NO exact way to reload that is the norm.

[painter]

Once this fellow figures out where he is REALLY at with all this stuff and double checking and a lot of how to do it he will be a happy camper. If he survives.

I know where I am with all this, just have a headache from all the conflicting information given.
PUSH and PLUNK tests(multiple times) confirms the bullet OAL to be needed is 1.045. According to Hodgdon Titegroup 3.9-4.3 grains---as per their reply to my question. I'm going to back off to 3.9. I have taped up the other loads and will not be using them. YET. I'm really concerned because so many people are conflicting on their opinions of reseating those rounds.
ONE THING I AM LEARNING QUICKLY---there is NO exact way to reload that is the norm.

Not to be flippant, but you also told us that the round loaded at 1.125 fit your chamber 'perfectly'. Can you see why perhaps we are questioning you?

ID is correct about it being safe to seat them deeper to 1.045. You'd be just over the start load at 4.0 gr. Also, keep in mind the .015 setback is not set in stone. It's a guideline. If your process can hold tolerance then you could load at 1.050.

Whether you can seat them deeper without damage to the plating completely depends on how you had the FCD set. If the plating is damaged, or becomes damaged, they might not be particularly accurate, or they could cause leading in your barrel, either of which is less of a pain than disassembling them. They won't be over pressure.

[Wobbly]

ONE THING I AM LEARNING QUICKLY---there is NO exact way to reload that is the norm.

With apologies in advance and NO animosity toward anyone, friend, IMHO you have reached the wrong conclusions.

? 9x19 Luger is small, but you should never confuse small with easy.  It is a high pressure cartridge that demands you know what you're doing... on the press and in component selection. And the CZ barrel takes all this one step further. That's what makes it fun for experienced reloaders.

? All these differing opinions are because you've selected Tite Group as your powder. TG is probably THE single most volatile powder on the market. Sure, lots of people use it, but lots of people also have refined processes, know the accuracy limits of their reloading equipment, and have a need. After several decades of reloading 9mm I do not fit into that category, and I suspect neither do you.


May I be so bold as to suggest you momentarily step back from Tite Group altogether and buy a less volatile powder (like say, Win 231 or Hodgdon HP-38) . Something with a more forgiving load window. Something that will allow a greater safety margin. Something that will allow easier recovery from gross errors. Then, the opinions and load data will converge on a single point that will be easier for you to understand and deal with.

Friend, it's your powder selection that makes things seem like you've been thrown into the "deep end" on your first swimming lesson.

All the best.   

[tdogg]

I'll second (or third) that you can reseat these cartridges deeper with caviot.  Before you go and reseat them deeper, can you post up a picture of one of the completed cartridges prior to reseating?  Can you measure and share the crimp diameter (the diameter right at the mouth of the case head of the completed cartridge)?  Additionally if you can pull a completed cartridge apart, can you post up a picture of the bullet?  I'm interested in seeing if there is any sign of crimping into the plating on the bullet.  If you don't see any sign of damage on the bearing surface of the bullet, you should be good to seat reseat the bullet deeper.

Additionally, before you go and reseat all of them you can use one or two of them to determine the max OAL in your barrel using the "Press" method.  As IDescribe stated above, I'd start by reseating them close to what you found doing the "Push" test (say about 1.085-1.090) and then checking them by performing the "Plunk" test and see if it passes in your barrel (insert into field stripped barrel, spins freely with slight thumb pressure on head, invert barrel and falls out under own weight).  Incrementally seat the bullet deeper and deeper (by 0.003-0.005) and performing the "Plunk" test in your barrel with each iteration.  When you find the OAL that passes the "Plunk" test that is your Max OAL for that bullet and barrel.  You would then subtract 0.015 to find you working max OAL for that bullet and barrel.

Hopefully what you find performing this iterative "Press" method of determining your max OAL is similar to what you found by performing the "Push" test to determine max OAL.

ONE THING I AM LEARNING QUICKLY---there is NO exact way to reload that is the norm.

With apologies in advance and NO animosity toward anyone, friend, IMHO you have reached the wrong conclusions.

I'll agree with Wobbly but I understand where your coming from.  There isn't an exact recipe to follow but there is a very clear process to follow to find the recipe in your firearm.  Load data isn't gospel and using it as such can get you into trouble.  Knowing your max OAL and associated bullet seating depth is one of the first things you need to understand when working up new components.  Then you need to compare your seating depth with multiple reputable sources of load data (not listed in any load data I've found so you will have to do some research to calculate the seating depth using the OAL listed and the exact bullet length) to find out if your starting load is safe at your found working max OAL (shallower seating depth is safer).  Then you can determine a starting load and work up ladders preferably across a chronograph and compare your velocities with velocities listed in your reputable load data sources.  When you find your load that is "accurate", "makes powerfactor", "has manageable recoil", "is a certain velocity", and/or etc... and has a velocity that is less than the published reputable load data max velocity then you are a happy reloader.  If during your ladder loading you reach the max velocity listed then that's it that is your max load for that bullet, powder, OAL, barrel, and primer combination.

Hopefully this all makes sense but once your figure out the process then the recipe is easy to determine.

Cheers,
Toby

[1SOW]

Actually,  there isn't much conflict in the above comments.  Some would seat them deeper.  Others would start over.
All would make sure the bullet is not contacting the leade or rifling.  Once that's determined, then each reloader can choose safely how to procede.

  Just remember that Hogdon or Speer or IMR etc. didn't test their load data in a CZ or XD pistol chamber.  They tested them in a fixture usually with a 4" bbl  made to measure pressure and speed. They also used an OAL that easily fit that fixture chamber  and gave good results. 

 

[fdmyrick73]

Is there a powder manufacture that has us CZ?

What are all you guys using in a copper plated or JHP or FMJ round in your 9mm luger CZ 75 BD?