A requirement for Boris_LA, who is a REAL bullseye shooter

[Joe L]

...For starting, any reasonble accurate stock gun and low grade standard velosity ammo do just fine. Dont overthink it, but concentrate on your own skills and shot execution...

This.  I have only owned one pistol that mechanically was not up for a good result at 25 or 50 yards.  It was fixed with a bushing replacement.  I have had high centerfire match score with a P-07, a CZ-97B"E", and a P-09.  All excellent mechanically, from the factory. 

The best reasons for participating in bullseye is that you get to shoot a lot in a match, and improvement in bullseye scores shows up as an increase in skill for shooting in any other shooting discipline, whether IDPA, 3 gun, F class, etc.   It is a lot of fun to know that I can take a new pistol out of the case, load it with good ammo, and shoot good groups with it with very little practice.  I did so this morning with a friend's brand new 75B Compact, gritty, creepy trigger and all. Five shots on a 9" paper plate at 25 yards to check the sights, then right to the bullseye target, single hand, standing, timed fire (5 shots in 20 seconds, twice).  Here is the result.  (I am quite happy with this result, as I had back surgery 4 days ago and this was my first trip back to the range.) 



I couldn't have done this without at least 500 rounds practice first just a few years ago.   I just have better trigger control now than I used to, regardless of the gun I'm shooting, and the reason is bullseye practice.  I'm sure Boris has had similar results. 

My plan is to shoot a P-10C in a local bullseye match in the next two months.  I fully intend to have a competitive result, against some folks shooting some expensive, specialized bullseye pistols.

Joe 

[Boris_LA]

Great timing, I was just about to reach out to Boris and Joe for a suggested training routine.

BE is new to me, but I started as Metallic Silhouette shooter with outdoor Air pistol and Small-bore pistol. Later started shooting rifles, air rifle and small bore. I have also been shooting Free pistol and some centerfire, but not as much as Airguns and Smallbore Standard Pistol. All shot standing offhand. The fundamentals of precision shooting translate directly between different disciplines. Improving with air pistol show direct improving with smallbore. Once you understand to ignore (irrelevant to accuracy) louder noise and stronger recoil impulse of centerfire, the same basics applied without any modification.
I recommend new shooters to start with low noise and recoil airguns or 22s and develop the "basics" of trigger control, sight picture and grip consistency before adding higher powered guns to their training. Fortunately to CZ owners, there is perfect path to this training. CZ Kadet and the original 9mm slide. Learning with the same gun, weigh, balance, trigger and grip is something cost efficient and cuts corners in training by not having to learn and adjust to multiple grips and triggers.
Loading 5 rounds at the time and shooting one (carefully executed) shot at the time!
My initial ratio 22/9mm during the range sessions was about 4/1. I was shooting 150-200 rounds of 22 and finish with box of 50 9mm. Now its about half and half, unless I have (often do) specific mission for the range session, like testing the new loads, sights corrections, ballistics testing etc.
Standard practice mostly still starts with 22 to warm up and get in the mood and then switch to 9mm or 45. My two Kadet kits going to the range with me all the time. One is with RedDot (removable) and one with iron sights. I also have a pair of 9mm CZs with me all the time. One is SP-01 with permanently mounted RedDot and other is SA with Removable RedDot, that I shot in either RDS or Iron sights configuration. Both guns accept Kadet Kits. Nowadays I also take a pair of CZ97s with me. Again, one is with permanent RDS and one with adjustable iron sights and my centerfire part of training split between 9mm and 45 most of the time.
Most of the other guns are traveling to the range only for specific missions or matches.
For smallbore portion of the BE match I use different (then CZ Kadet) target pistol that I already have in my standard target pistol collection, but for CF portion I use 9mm CZ or lately 45ACP CZ.
To summarize: CZ 75 in 9mm and Kadet kit gives you excellent start in to target shooting and training and will last you for the most of your shooting career.

Sorry for too many characters.

[painter]

sweet! please share any 'ideas', 'tips' for us - wanna bee's! politely! 

k in mi

Start with finding the local match and attend. Watch or shoot 22 for the first time(s). Don't get discouraged by poor initial result. Start training to shoot one handed (weekly at very least) and read up all the tips on multiple forums dedicated to precision shooting and bulls-eye. Ask questions and try to find mentor who is better shooter to couch you a bit. Add center-fire pistol to your practice/training routine.
Set up the small achievable goals at first. Get all shoots on paper, get all shots into scoring rings, get all/most on the black etc...
Keep training no matter how slow the progress is. Its one of the more difficult shooting sports and eventually you will improve. They still haven't shot the perfect score, so this place is waiting for you.

Absolutely perfect advice!!  I would add, stick to very few pistol models, adapt them to you where possible, accept that shooting well one day and not the next is a shooter problem, not a gun or ammo problem, learn to steady the gun on target and then not move it as you pull the trigger.  Easy.  But you can spend your life learning to do it consistently, 10 shots in a row.

Joe

Truer words have never been spoken!

[Joe L]

Similar training regimen here to Boris'.  I usually start with the Kadet, 60 rounds, then 60 rounds of centerfire, then go back to what I need to work on the most, for another 20-40 rounds.  Usually 120 rounds minimum practice session, 1/2 to 3/4 in .22.  For the next two months, more 50 yard slow fire with the .22 than usual, as that is where I need to improve the most. 

I try to get in 2 range sessions per week.  Plus some dry fire during the week.  I probably average 200 rounds/wk, 800 per month, 10,000 per year, depending on work load, weather, health and ammo cost. 

Joe

[Boris_LA]

I try to get in 2 range sessions per week.  Plus some dry fire during the week.  I probably average 200 rounds/wk, 800 per month, 10,000 per year, depending on work load, weather, health and ammo cost. 

Joe

During the week I only have time for one (rarely two) indoor session after work. 1.5-2hours.
On the weekends I am trying to attend 4-5 days/matches a month. One is outdoor BE match, others are outdoor Metallic Silhouette, shooting smallbore pistols and rifles. Total ammo usage is probably the same as yours, but reloading 9mm and 45ACP helps with quality of the ammo and cost saving big time. I couldn't afford or want to spend that much on match grade centerfire ammo. My hands will be shaking  too much if i think of the ammo cost.

[Earl Keese]

Thank you both, that's exactly what I was after. I've practiced shooting my Kadet(FF3) quite a bit with wrists rested to get a feel for grip/hold and trigger press. A few times I've shot it standing single hand at 25yds but it's? been a while. Started the same with my 97 since having the bushing done and finding a good load/bullet. I've noticed that my groups are significantly affected by the size of the aim point on the target. What do you recommend for practice targets?

[Boris_LA]

Thank you both, that's exactly what I was after. I've practiced shooting my Kadet(FF3) quite a bit with wrists rested to get a feel for grip/hold and trigger press. A few times I've shot it standing single hand at 25yds but it's? been a while. Started the same with my 97 since having the bushing done and finding a good load/bullet. I've noticed that my groups are significantly affected by the size of the aim point on the target. What do you recommend for practice targets?

Shooting rested gun is great for sighting it in and testing ammo and gun capability. Unfortunately it doesn't help with offhand shooting at all. Once you know what to expect from the gun/ammo, start shooting only offhand.
I would recommend for the new shooter to start with 8-9" blank paper plates. $12 for 1200 count at Costco.
Hang them at 7-10yards and if you keep all shots on the plate, move further down the range. The goal is consistently hit a rounded group and see it shrinking in a time. You don't need a black bullseye on the target at this stage, especially with Reddot. The entire plate is you target, just aim at the center.
When your group of 10 shots tears a center of the plate in one big hole, you can add a stick on bullseye center to it to see what score it would yield.
Preparing for a real match, shoot the standard target for that match at the required distance or reduced for shorter distance. The target itself is not that important and sometimes even a distraction. Your concentration should be on the consistent, repeatable shot execution and calling your shots. Group size is just a reflection of consistency. Group position (if consistent) is an indication of sights adjustment requirement.

I routinely practice on both blank paper and a black circle. Black center is when I don't want to see individual holes until the end of the string and subconsciously correct my aim between the shots in the string. Shoot'n see centers only if i use iron sights with 6 o'clock hold and want to see the impact for calling shots and sights adjustment.

[coolbox]

Exceptional shooting. I am amazed. Great going sir!

[Joe L]

Earl, expanding a little more on what Boris advised above...I will occassionally just shoot at a blank sheet of paper at 25 yards, no smaller than letter size, single handed standing like in a bullseye match.  What this does is prevents one from "timing the shot", that is, jerking the trigger as the sight alignment crosses the x ring of a bullseye target.  One simply tries to move the trigger smoothly to the rear while the sights are wobbling within the white target, with no centerpoint visible reference.   You will be surprised at how small the group can get IF you aren't timing the shot and IF you can move the trigger without moving the gun more than the wobble. 

I love shooting at paper plates, especially with open sight guns.  I still can't resist setting up a few plates and doing some old IDPA run and gun drills on the plates some times, just not much running going on these days, but instead two shots per plate, alternating plates. 

Little things matter.  I've struggled with the back problems for a few months, and haven't really been able to shoot well during that time.  I'm hoping to get back to making some improvements over the next few months now that I am not distracted with the leg/back pain.  Even that little bit of distraction affects one's ability to move the trigger without moving the gun. 

Joe

[OlegG]

Boris and Joe are giving excellent advice about Bullseye training regimen.
I want to add the critical importance of dry firing. Live fire does not allow you to track your trigger control in full detail, because the "bang" obscures the last, and crucial, moment of the trigger movement, right before the shot goes off.
However, dry firing is only slightly less boring than watching the grass grow.
My solution has been to call technology to the rescue.
I bought a SIRT pistol from Next Level Training - it is a laser pistol that cannot fire any live rounds. I bought the 107 model, which copies an S&W M&P full size pistol and modified it using Sugru (Thanks, Joe for the idea!!!) to mimic my 1911 as much as possible.



I am using the SIRT in combunation with the LASR software:

http://lasrapp.com/

The software allows me to dry fire while mimicking live fire as close as possible.
I am very limited in the time I can spend at the range - the ranges are closed by the time I get home from work. With the LASR app and the SIRT, I can train in the evenings as much as I can push myself to do - typically 3-5 per week for 30 - 60 mins each time.
Unlimited laser "ammo" + benefits of dry firing + ability to train on very specific exercises and achieve specific iterative goals.
In my house I set up an official 50 foot NRA target and "shoot" it with the laser pistol from 50 feet away. On my best days I can do this:



In fact, lately I have been setting more challenging goals for myself and print out targets with reduced-size bullseyes.

It is still a long road ahead for me, and I am still only a marksman officially (although I have been shooting Sharpshooter scores steadily in training).

I fact, using the laser pistol and software has completely changed my approach to training: I now view the live fire sessions only as PRACTICE session, not TRAINING sessions. Meaning that when I go to the range it is to practice and confirm with live fire what I learned in dry fire training sessions.

I have seen significant improvement. Here are my best targets with my .45 and .22 pistols.



If anybody is interested, I can explain more about how the laser gun and the app are working together for me.

[Boris_LA]

Yesterday outdoor match. Almost windless sunny day. Shot many 98-99 with both 22 and 45. Good shooting day.
This one is interesting 100-0Xs

While shooting my CZ97 I made a shocking discovery
Centerfire guns, even CZs, need cleaning in order to feed reliably and shoot tighter. Nothings dramatic, a few pull throughs with boresnake, but still. This creates a dangerous precedent. Cleaning guns, whats next? Washing car? Still shaking my head.

[Joe L]

Boris--did you tell your competitors that you TRIED to shoot a 100-0x?  Pretty cool.  I think I have done 100-2x or something.   Your result is fantastic!!

The CZ chambers across the line seem to be tighter than your standard Glock.  I have found that I actually have to clean the centerfire chambers and barrel ramps occasionally also.  But maybe every 500 rounds or so, nothing critical. 

I did shoot the P-10C at 50 yards today with open sights and got a 2" five shot group.  Once. 

Joe

[Boris_LA]

Boris--did you tell your competitors that you TRIED to shoot a 100-0x?  Pretty cool.  I think I have done 100-2x or something.   Your result is fantastic!!

The CZ chambers across the line seem to be tighter than your standard Glock.  I have found that I actually have to clean the centerfire chambers and barrel ramps occasionally also.  But maybe every 500 rounds or so, nothing critical. 

I did shoot the P-10C at 50 yards today with open sights and got a 2" five shot group.  Once. 

Joe

I guess 100/0x is still better than 99/9x i have shot a couple of months ago
I don't have any "standard Glocks". All my center-fire handguns are CZs.
On the first slow fire stage i had 3 feeding issues, that required manual assistance and score was below 90. After few boresnake pulls the second and third SF strings were trouble free and scored again other 90. Thats there "eureka" moment occurred. I had the same issue last month and blamed on ammo. Since that match, i bough a ammo gauge and tested my reloads. Applied crimp again on the questionable ones. Now i know that was a gun, not the ammo. Only happened to my match JHP ammo. The lead bullets were shooting fine. Softer bullets probably give easy.
Now i am looking on my Toyota and cant decide weather to wash it or wait for the next winter rain in California?

[coolbox]

That is awesome shooting!
I have noticed, that I do need to clean my 9mm CTS about every 400-500 rounds for reliable feeding with regular ammunition. We once had a batch of dirty ammunition, that needed to be cleaned every 40 to 50 rounds. It had a lot of sealant which formed thick layer of 'crud'.
I am at about 300 plus rounds now, and might clean the pistol just for the fun of it.
However, I never noticed the accuracy factor. In fact, I just shot a very nice group yesterday (similar groups was shot last week, no pics though). It should be 50/50 on your target dimensions. The one shot to low right was my error, as we had 20mph gusting winds, and I had to hold the gun tighter for stability..25mtrs (27.5 yards) with single hand hold.



shared with no intentions to hijack this thread!

[Joe L]

What can I say?  Here I am struggling with a 4" plastic carry gun when I should be shooting the Kadet and 97 and trying to match your targets!!

 

Joe