Author Topic: Load Testing: Alliant Sport Pistol powder  (Read 59555 times)

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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2017, 04:39:59 PM »
You would need to tell us what application you wanted to use it for.  You would not want to use Bullseye and Power Pistol for the same application, so what are you loading for?  50 yards bullseye competitions?  "Action shooting" competitions in 9mm minor?  Plinking?  Defense loads?

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2017, 04:41:50 PM »
Ok, I would like to ask for some advice.  I have used Accurate's AA7 7 for 9mm and .40 S&W.  Didn't like it due to the fact that it would leak out of my powder measure and was much grittier and had a stiff pull on  the measure handle.  Switched to Power Pistol and have had really good results so I have stuck with it.  Can anyone tell me the negatives of using power pistol?   I think it meters very well, but  I am thinking of trying something else. It seems there is a lot of folks high on BE-86, Tightgroup, and Bullseye.  Any strong opinions on trying something new or should I just be happy with being satisfied where I am.
Depends on what you're looking to get out of your powder. I got BE-86 for a slower pistol powder. It sounded like a slightly improved and slightly faster version of Power Pistol, but I could be wrong.

This new powder, Sport Pistol, is a faster burn rate than BE-86 and Power Pistol. It a medium to fast burn rate, like Hp-38. Maybe a just a fast pistol powder. It can produce velocities that make it work for minor power factor, it's clean, meters well, and they put out a ton of load data. So if you want a faster powder I'd recommend it.

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Offline HeinyO

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2017, 12:26:19 AM »
I am using it to practice with. Target shooting. May get into some competitions as I improve my skills. But, for now poking holes in paper at various distances.  There is  a lot of talk about faster/slower burning powders. What are the advantages of each? According to Chuck Hawk, burn rate is meaningless.  http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burn_rate.htm.   Thanks for your input.
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2017, 01:10:46 PM »
That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.

I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate as thoroughly as I can, which still isn't all that thorough, and I really want to avoid that.  Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:

  • His premise is that burn rate charts are worthless.  His conclusion restates that burn rate charts are worthless.  Not one iota of his argument talks about burn rate charts or their organization.  His argument is about the limitations of relative quickness, which makes his article completely off topic in relation to his premise.
  • AND even for what his article does do in terms of support, it does it poorly.  The fact that ballisticians use relative quickness rather than burn rate is irrelevant.  It is incredibly common for industry experts to use terms that are different than the terms used for public consumption.  Pointing out that the ballisticians don't use the term burn rate so that he can suggest that burn rate is meaningless is either dishonest or stupid.

Basically, Wakeman clearly doesn't think burn rate charts are of much use, and he has good cause for that, but the argument he makes is a whole lot of smoke.

The truth is that a universal burn rate chart is inherently flawed.  You can take a particular bullet in a particular caliber of a particular diameter made of a particular material and of a particular weight and load it to a particular OAL, then load it with all the powders appropriate for that caliber, run tests at an ambient temp of 80F, and rank those powders in order by burn rate.  The tests should be as repeatable as the gear used to run the tests are precise. 

The problem is that different powders respond differently to different variables, so different variable sets will produce different burn rate orders.  It's not going to be dramatic.  Power Pistol is going to be slower than Bullseye with all variable sets. But two powders that are closer together, like 3N37 and N340, those might flip flop going from one bullet weight to another, or one caliber to another.

That all means that when you are looking at a universal burn rate chart, that chart might not be 100% true for any variable set, much less all variable sets.  Someone somewhere placed those powders on order based on typical orders or averages or whatever.  I don't think anyone can say for sure, but one thing we can say for sure is that no two powder manufacturers use the same method.  It's clearly as much art as it is science.

But that doesn't mean that burn rate charts are meaningless.  Given a caliber, a bullet weight, and desired velocity range, the powders best for that application are going to group together by burn rate. 

HP-38 and the powders right around it on a burn rate chart are more useful for driving 124gr bullets to velocities between 1050 and 1080 feet/sec for 9mm "minor power factor" USPSA and IDPA competitions than AA7 is.  And AA7 and the powders right around it on a burn rate chart are better for driving a 115gr bullet to 1200-1250 feet/sec for 50 yard bullseye competition.  And Varget and the powders right around it on the burn rate chart are worthless for both applications.

That's what burn rate and burn rate charts are good for.  I know Powder X is great for Application A, so if I want to know what other powders might be good for application A, I can look on a burn rate chart for the powders right around Powder X.  That's pretty much it.

So what would I recommend for you?

If you wanted to shoot 9mm Luger at 50 yards at a 1-inch circular target, where time and thus recoil are not significant concerns, I would recommend a 115gr bullet at 1200+ feet/sec and Power Pistol.  And if not Power Pistol, something of a similarly slow burn rate.

If you wanted to shoot 9mm Luger competitively at ranges from 7 - 35 yards, at 6x12-inch targets, where how much time it takes you to shoot is calculated into your score, so recoil is a factor to consider, I would recommend a 124/125gr bullet from 1050-1080 ft/s with HP-38 or any other powder close to that on a burn rate chart -- things like Bullseye, N320, Titegroup, American Select, Ramshot Zip, Red Dot, Prima V, WST, etc., etc..

AND if you wanted to develop a general target load you could shoot at a wide variety of distances and carry over into action shooting, go with the action shooting load option #2 above out of the gate, and focus on accuracy in load development.

Also, because burn rate charts are useful in terms of powders grouped together, burn rate charts that group powders in tiers are more useful than charts that rank them 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8....  The ones that rank in numerical order can be misleading.  If you're going to look at one for anything, it's better to look at one like this: http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 11:37:32 PM by Wobbly »

Offline RenegadeDave

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2017, 04:43:43 PM »
For action pistol games, picking a nice middle of the road burn rate powder then developing for accuracy is probably the way to go.  Most people don't even bother developing for accuracy since we're shooting at such large targets. 

You should be aiming for 132ish powerfactor for being safe at chrono.  There's not a wild difference in feel of 132 down to 128, but if you undercharge by .2 gr you may be on the ragged edge. 
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Offline painter

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2017, 08:05:28 PM »
That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.

I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate thoroughly, and I really want to avoid that.  Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:

<snip>
He's the world's foremost expert...just ask him. ;)
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2017, 09:23:00 PM »
That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.

I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate thoroughly, and I really want to avoid that.  Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:

<snip>
He's the world's foremost expert...just ask him. ;)

Exactly  ;)

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2017, 09:57:00 PM »
BTW here's some pictures of my bores after shooting. Both guns had some 700X loads through them previously, so they had some messiness on the ramps and surrounding parts already. But these bores look cleaner than any other powder I've used. My list isn't crazy, but I've run 700X, HP-38, Longshot, BE-86, and now Sport Pistol. If you can tell, the buildup from Sport Pistol is more grey in color. Not sure it's coming through... Anyways, I had forgotten to look at my bores and I'm very pleased!



« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 08:33:53 AM by Wobbly, Reason: Mods set width on photos »
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SPO1SHADOW

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2017, 09:09:51 PM »
I loaded some rounds tonight with Sport Pistol just to see if the burn rate in 9mm was where I thought it would be from looking at the load data. There is none for 135 grain bullets which is what I like to shoot. So splitting the difference between the top load for 124 grain bullets and the same for 147 grain bullets it looks like a decent load for a 135 grain coated bullet should be around 3.7 to 3.8 grains of powder. I loaded 3.8 grains @ an OAL of 1.120. I did not get to chrono anything but I was paying attention to the primers, case head expansion and the general look of the fired brass. Case head expansion was minimal and I did not get any burned cases so at this level the brass is fully sealing the chamber, primers look normal and the case ejection was about the same as the Clean Shot and Prima V I have been shooting. Recoil was about the same but the one thing I noticed that may make this stuff worth the purchase was the level of smoke it was producing in the late humid afternoon as compared to the other 2 powders mentioned. If it chronos like I think it will and has any sort of accuracy it just might be the winner. Compared to the Clean Shot and Prima V there is about an 80% reduction in smoke, it's just as clean shooting and maybe a little more so. I will try to get in some chrono and accuracy tests tomorrow if it doesn't rain me out but just the big reduction in smoke and its cleanliness has my interests tweaked. It measures superbly and fills the case nicely. If it is accurate it may just be what I am searching for to replace the very expensive and sometimes hard to find N320.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 09:53:59 PM by SPO1SHADOW »

Offline RenegadeDave

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2017, 07:30:11 AM »
I loaded some rounds tonight with Sport Pistol just to see if the burn rate in 9mm was where I thought it would be from looking at the load data.

I look forward to your tests!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 03:42:50 PM by Wobbly »
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SPO1SHADOW

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2017, 07:15:37 PM »
Had some time this afternoon and the weather cooperated nicely. I fired 40 rounds today, same 135 grain ACME coated with 3.8 grains of Sport Pistol loaded to 1.120. two 10 round strings over the chrono showed a high of 989 and a low of 969 on the first string and high 988 and a low of 976 on the second. The average for both strings was 984.  I shot a few off hand groups at 20 yards after warming up at the chrono and all were under 2". Smoke was the same today, I did not notice it at all. I had a buddy watching and he said he could see some puffs of smoke but nothing like the CS or PV we have been shooting at this time of day, nothing you have to look around or under to see the target.This powder has a low report for a load approaching 133 power factor but has a different sound than any I have used before. I will try backing it off two tenths attempting a power factor of 130 to see if it starts to produce any smoke in the late afternoon. It is very clean and soft shooting leaving only a gray coloring like N320 with a low but slightly different report. All good so far!

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2017, 07:33:10 PM »
Thanks for further testing SP01Shadow. I lack the chronograph, but the cleanliness, low smoke, Grey residue and your other results seem similar to my experience.

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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2017, 08:10:58 PM »
I was muffed and plugged at an indoor range... So I didn't. I've got another 100 loaded up and I'll shoot them outdoors on Monday. I'll see if I can snag some video and I'll listen  for the report (and maybe I'll shoot decent again).

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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2017, 02:17:07 PM »
So.... I thought I'd broken my draw. In dry fire I thought I fixed it, but whatever I did threw off my grip and trigger pull. Last range session was miserable and this one had a lot of dry fire mixed into live fire. The figure out what I changed and I'm coming back around with my draw and grip and trigger pull.

 That all culminated into shooting from a wrist rest at 25 yards with my SP-01 Compact to see if I could get some accuracy out of Sport Pistol. And.... BOOM! This is a first for me but I got a 4 shot group at 1 3/4"!!!



Side note, I had to hit the indoor range. Couldn't sneak away to drive out to the boonies for an outdoor session. It's hard to tell the difference in sound indoors for me. But it absolutely produces much less smoke than any other powder I've shot! Clean, accurate, not smokey, and thanks to SP01Shadow we have confirmed velocities. This is good stuff!

Oh and I didn't notice my pistols getting any hotter than normal.... I'll run mag dumps next time and specifically feel for that.

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« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 02:21:21 PM by Scarlett Pistol »
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SPO1SHADOW

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2017, 06:18:55 PM »
i spent most of the afternoon today banging away with my new P-07 and my P-09. i backed the load off to 3.6 grains of powder and did indeed reach 130 PF. It is not quite as clean but the smoke was still at a minimum and the accuracy did not suffer still making 1 3/4" groups at 20 yards. The softness increased and at 130 this is a very soft shooting powder as would be expected. Double taps and drills were a breeze even with the smaller lighter P-07. Glad i purchased 8 lbs of it. It compares very closely with N320 in just about every aspect. i think we have a winner and at the same price as Promo what more could you want.