MIM Parts in the CZ

[schmeky]

We have observed the newest batch of SP-01 manual safety CZ's now use a Metal Injection Molded (MIM) sear cage assembly.  If you have followed the MIM controversy in the 1911 circle you'll find most pundits have denigrated the use of MIM.

If done right, MIM is an excellent choice for small, complex parts that require repeatable precision.  The majority of older machined CZ sear cages have displayed very rough machining in critical areas.   These new MIM parts have cured this.

My guess is we will see more MIM parts in the majority of "regular" 75's in the future.  Besides, CZ has been doing this in many of it's current models for years with no issues.

[Mjolnir]

Low cost, near net shape parts but not as strong as a CNC machined part of the same alloy: it will lack grain structure refinement and possess some amount of voids.

If a component is decided beforehand to be MIM and designed for it (larger cross section, fewer geometrical changes over a given distance)  I've no issue.


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[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

The MIM controversy stems from Kimber issues of many years ago  and they rectified that problem. Many gun manufacturers have been using the method with great success for years now S&W, Colt, Ruger, Sig to name a few are chock full of MIM parts.
The method works, parts done right are very high quality and repeatable. For those who "know better" and bash MIM anyway think about the MIM used in the engine of your modern automobile or better yet next time you are sitting on a plane waiting for take off just ponder the number of small parts in those jet engines that may be MIM. Enjoy your flight!

[Chef Jeff]

The MIM controversy stems from Kimber issues of many years ago  and they rectified that problem. Many gun manufacturers have been using the method with great success for years now S&W, Colt, Ruger, Sig to name a few are chock full of MIM parts.
The method works, parts done right are very high quality and repeatable. For those who "know better" and bash MIM anyway think about the MIM used in the engine of your modern automobile or better yet next time you are sitting on a plane waiting for take off just ponder the number of small parts in those jet engines that may be MIM. Enjoy your flight!

This pretty much sums it up. I have no issues with MIM.

[SI_Pop]

Anything CZUB can do to make more firearms at a lower cost is fine with me. If Schmeky says the parts are better than the old machined ones, that's more than good enough for me.

[Mjolnir]

The MIM controversy stems from Kimber issues of many years ago  and they rectified that problem. Many gun manufacturers have been using the method with great success for years now S&W, Colt, Ruger, Sig to name a few are chock full of MIM parts.
The method works, parts done right are very high quality and repeatable. For those who "know better" and bash MIM anyway think about the MIM used in the engine of your modern automobile or better yet next time you are sitting on a plane waiting for take off just ponder the number of small parts in those jet engines that may be MIM. Enjoy your flight!

Hot Isostatic Press (HIP) is *NOT* the same as MIM.

Not
Even
Close


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[Mjolnir]

And if you don't have the same refined grain structure (and you cannot) it's not as strong.

And if you have porosity (and you almost certainly will) crack resistance is compromised compared to a part machined from a forged blank.

It's metallurgy, folks.

If the part is designed FROM CONCEPT to utilize MIM it can (and does) work. But that part will have a larger cross sectional diameter (in order to handle the loads since it lacks the density and grain refinement).

Given a choice (and I can afford it) I'll take a CNC machined part from a forging.


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[SI_Pop]

Well, auto manufacturers have been using MIM parts in engines for decades. I'm sure it's been observed, but automobiles are going longer and longer, thus the decline in sales. Now if internal combustion engines can run just fine with MIM parts for a few hundred thousand miles, I don't think it's going to kill anyone to have a sear cage assembly made with the same process. Also keep in mind that CZ is one of the largest firearms manufacturers in the world, and are one of very few to have direct control over the materials they use. I understand that a *good* forged, CNC machined part can be better than a MIM part, but as with all manufacturing practices, the technique is far from being the only determining factor in the strength and durability of the part. There can be a poorly done forged part and a well done MIM part, and vice versa. You also have to think about whether or not some of these parts warrant the added cost and time of producing a forged, milled part. Does a sear cage assembly really *need* to be forged? As Schmeky pointed out, he has seen improvements in some areas with these parts. I honestly see nothing wrong with it at all.

[Grendel]

This is a counterpart to the eternal 'caliber' debate. Those who see nothing wrong or sub-par in MiM parts will never convince those who champion cast or forged parts and vice versa.

Eventually, given enough rope, all these threads degenerate into name calling, hard feelings, people flouncing off with their ball, and so on.

With that in mind, carry on.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

This is a counterpart to the eternal 'caliber' debate. Those who see nothing wrong or sub-par in MiM parts will never convince those who champion cast or forged parts and vice versa.

Eventually, given enough rope, all these threads degenerate into name calling, hard feelings, people flouncing off with their ball, and so on.

With that in mind, carry on.

Yea pretty much this. You can find the MIM debate in virtually every gun forum on the internet and it's nothing but a shoutfest yet NO ONE can definitively prove MIM is substandard.
I like fancy forged and machined parts but MIM has been arounds for decades now and is a proven manufacturing method.
Like it or not.

[AZ_CZ]

I'm no expert on any of this but it's a safe bet Eitri and Brokkr didn't use MIM when they made Mj?lnir! Not saying they got it 100% right, I heard a rumor they kinda screwed it up. 

[M1A4ME]

On another forum I belong to (very glock centric) there was a thread awhile back about one of the members having his glock go down right at the start of a training class.  The striker (a MIM part) had broken.

That, of course, led to another thread about a source for milled steel Glock strikers.

Stuff breaks.  The higher the quality of the part (not necessarily the cost you pay for it) the better chance you have of it not breaking when your need it.

These days, companies (a lot of them) do not have the same goals as they had in the past.  When I started working in the chemical industry over 30 years ago we had a "safety" team that did all the usual "safety" stuff trying to eliminate injuries/accidents, etc.  A couple years before I retired the "safety" group was still being called the safety group by all of us production people, but they didn't refer to themselves or their job that way anymore.  They were referring to it as "risk management".

The difference?  Safety was about Safety.  Whether you believe all accidents can be eliminate or not (giving the wrong answer at work several years ago would get you in a lot of trouble or even get you fired if you failed to retract the offending statement/opinion when pressured to do so) the goal was still to work towards elimination of accidents and injuries.

"Risk management" is different.  While they (the safety guys and management) may not admit to it openly, risk management is about calculation what the chances are of an accident or injury occurring.  If we don't take action to correct this known issue, what are the chance someone will get hurt?  If the chances are very low, they may elect not to correct the problem.  If the chance is pretty high then they'll spend the money to fix it/correct it.

Manufacture of machines with cheaper parts is similar.  What are the chances that this newer/cheaper piece will break?  What are the chances of this part being identified as the root of the failure?  What will the cost be to the corporation if the part fails?  If all that calculates out to be low, then they'll make the decision to go with the cheaper parts.

Sort of like gun control proponents.  Think about how many of those rich/influential folks will stand there and say guns are bad and the common folks (like us) don't need them - and then live/work/travel with gun toting guards to keep them safe.  They're not interested in the risks - to us.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I've always found it hysterical  how guys will go at each other about how a metal part is manufactured and how good or bad the quality of that part may be when installed in their PLASTIC framed pistols.
There were those in the late 1800's who said the unreliable/new invention called the automobile would never replace the horse.
Those same people said pneumatic tires could never be as reliable or long lasting as the rigid wagon wheel.
I remember as a kid hearing all the neighborhood wannabe mechanics screaming how that new electronic ignition would never work out.
I was just staring out in the automotive field when fuel injection was becoming the norm and all the old timers I worked with swore that crap would never replace the carburetor. Today you'd be hard pressed to find many techs who would even know what a carburetor looks like let alone be able to overhaul one.
I like old stuff like that but there is some new stuff that works pretty darn good.
MIM is here to stay like it or not and one day another new method will come on the scene and guys will be screaming about how much better MIM is than the new method.

[Stuart]

We have observed the newest batch of SP-01 manual safety CZ's now use a Metal Injection Molded (MIM) sear cage assembly.  If you have followed the MIM controversy in the 1911 circle you'll find most pundits have denigrated the use of MIM.

If done right, MIM is an excellent choice for small, complex parts that require repeatable precision.  The majority of older machined CZ sear cages have displayed very rough machining in critical areas.   These new MIM parts have cured this.

My guess is we will see more MIM parts in the majority of "regular" 75's in the future.  Besides, CZ has been doing this in many of it's current models for years with no issues.

More importantly. You have seen new SP01 ( 91152 ) pistols ? WHAT!

[Tyerone]

... I don't think it's going to kill anyone to have a sear cage assembly made with the same process.

Maybe that is fine for a safe queen or target pistol, but I'd rather my SD gun kill the bad guy if need be to stop the attack.

Sorry, couldn't help myself there.