new reloader - preemptive questions

[TdC]

Hello everyone,

as I mentioned earlier in another topic, my press arrived today. But I have some questions to ask before I even start to unpack.
I apologize for my (maybe weird) English, typing errors or not understanding everything immediately but English isn't my mothertongue.

First
I shoot a SP01 shadow 9MM ipsc minor PF
bullets: LOS 147 grain RN copperplated (http://losmanufacturing.com/components/copper-plated-bullets/)
powder I could get is Vihtavuori 3N37
(bullets and powder were advised by clubmembers/friends who reload several years)

If I omitted anything please ask.

Measurements I took
bullet length 16.70 mm - .657 inch
ogive (?) is approximately 9mm - .354 inch / straight part 7.7mm .303 inch
push test (4 cases - 3 bullets): averaged 29.7mm - 1.169 inch
case average 18.95mm - .745inch

Is it possible I get such al long COAL?

If I'm correct this max COAL is viable for all case brands with this type of bullet?

LOS website states
145 gr 9mm RN
OAL 29 mm
Vihtavuori N340
3,8 grain for 915 fps out of a127mm barrel: PF = 133

VV reloading
147 gr 9mm RN rainier
OAL 29mm - 1.142 inch
Vihtavuori N340
3.8gr 892 fps 4inch barrel

and 3N37 4,5 grain for 937 fps

Is it safe to say that - because the N340 loads are identical - I can use the VV data for 3N37 for the LOS bullet?

Is it advised to start longer (say 1.15) or can I start at minimal COAL?
If I start longer, is there a problem with the noted starting load because the pressure would be lower and it clearly states not to underload any cartridges.

Thanks in advance
Toby

[inspector1999]

As you pushed tested the OAL for your pistol, I am assuming you pushed and were able to spin the bullet as this ensures you aren't in the land and grooves, I would put that as the length I would load to.

As for starting powder charge, the Vihtavuori website shows a starting load at 4.5 for a shorter OAL so that is where I would start.  I would chrono the load to see where I was and adjust from there.  If you are hitting 937 fps with a 147 grain bullet, as advertised by the load data, you are at 137 PF.  I would be happy there.

Go slow with your reloading, be methodical and have fun.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[painter]

Welcome!

You will be fine using the starting load for the 3n37 with the LOS bullet at the published OAL of 29mm. The small difference in charge at 1.15 would be inconsequential, and would actually only be below minimum at the starting load. Just like the data for the two bullets with a weight difference of 2 gr is identical.

I don't think 3n37 would be my choice for IPSC minor, however.

Good luck!

[TdC]

Thanks for the replies

When faced with doing it al myself I'm suddenly much more insecure

Sorry forgot to add the following: push test was the round pushed in the barrel and measured as I let it drop out. This value is without subtracting for spinning.
So it would be 1.169 - 0.015 = 1.154 OAL
Anyway I will load some dummy rounds for plunk and spin testing, feeding etc. before I even consider powder or primers

Some members in my club recommended the 3N37, and I was able to buy a 1-pound keg to try. If there are suggestions, I'll try those too, but I have to start somewhere.

Toby

[Wobbly]

Welcome Aboard !

? To make things clearer, this is the line of information from the Vit online reloading database I would use....

9,5g     147gr  RN  Rainier  29,0mm  1.142in  3N37  0,29g  4.5gr    286m/s    937f/s

NOTES
? Vit gives the "Starting Load" and you work upward, whereas most USA powder companies show the "Max Load" and you work downward
? The Rainier bullet is a copper-coated lead, and is most like your LOS brand of bullet
? If your bullet can load at 29,0mm then with its length of 67,7mm you'll have an insertion (seating) depth of less than 7,0mm which is perfect !!
? If your "Push Test" results gave you a Max OAL of 29,31mm then you are always good to use the shorter 29,0mm.
? According to Vit's own accounting, 3N37 is slower than N340. You've got to realize that the tested powders and reported data are for "normal" firearm loading, that is to say "self defense" and "hunting". Because you are only punching holes in paper, several concerns disappear. Therefore, a more optimal competition powder might be N330. However, this is not to say that you cannot use the 3N37 with good success.
? Access to a chronograph always helps in load development, however it is not mandatory since you have the Vit reloading data listing a bullet and powder combination that's almost an exact duplicate. In reloading we always prefer to err toward safety. A chronograph will simply add a layer of insurance.


? Realize that the 147gr bullet is longer than normal. You are able to use it in the CZ chamber because of the RN. I see LOS also makes conical nose bullets. If you want to try those you will probably be forced to drop back to the 124gr bullet weight because a 147gr conical will need to seat deeper into the cartridge case and due to the design of the case's interior this isn't always possible.

? The best advice I can give any novice reloader is to acquire and keep a dedicated notebook. Allow the first 5 pages for setup notes. Then dedicate one or two pages for each individual bullet. As you try different powders with each bullet you'll be able to see performance differences and narrow your search for the best load with that particular bullet.


I think you are good to go. We have quite a few "Stickies" (permanent posts at the top of the forum) to help novice reloaders. You will undoubtedly have other questions about press and die setup, please don't hesitate to add them to this post. In this way all your questions and answers will be in one place, making it easier for you to review.

Regards

[IDescribe]

push test (4 cases - 3 bullets): averaged 29.7mm - 1.169 inch

Is it possible I get such al long COAL?

Yes, it's very common with RN plated and jacketed bullets. 

Is it advised to start longer (say 1.15) or can I start at minimal COAL?

1.14-1.15 is a good starting point.




As to what load data to use, you're looking at it wrong.  You should simply use Vihtavuori's load data for the closest bullet to your own, which in this case is the 147gr Ranier.  This is what Wobbly is telling you.

START LOAD = 0,29g (4.5gr) -- 286 m/s (937 f/s) 
MAX   LOAD = 0,32g (4.9gr) -- 307 m/s (1008 f/s)

As has been pointed out, the starting load for 3N37 with a 147gr bullet is already a PF of 137, which is higher than most people want for 9mm minor.  It's actually exactly where I want to be with a 147gr bullet, but it's higher than what most want, and I wouldn't want to shoot with a minimum load.  This is not a good powder choice for a 9mm minor load.  You want a faster burning powder.  In Vihtavuori, you would want N320 or N330.

[Wobbly]

I shoot a SP01 shadow 9MM ipsc minor PF

Toby

Anyone know how a SP-01 Shadow is sprung ? My initial concern is cycling of the action with a Min Load, which of course can be overcome with springing. But then I'm coming at this from my experience with a plain-Jane SP-01 with 18# recoil springs.

 

[TdC]

Thanks again for all the quick replies!
I've read most stickies, and am reading trough the posts, but it is really much to comprehend at once.

My excuses for the confusion: I deducted that since both the LOS and Rainier have the same load for N340, are copperplated RN, I could use the 3N37 data for LOS. So my assumption was correct, but I've read over and over there is no assumption only measuring, so I thougt it was safer to ask.

I am now shooting 145 PF (factory ammo) so 137-138 seems adequate to me, but if a minimum load isn't that great, I'll go to a faster powder to achieve the same PF.

I am preparing my reloading desk: a notebook has a prominent place already.

Starting at 29mm with 4.5gr of 3N37 I'll work up a ladder and see what the results are. We have a chrony at the club I can use if asked politely.

Toby

PS Is there any advantage of a conical point over a round nose?

[SoCal]

If you want to stay with 147 for now you can load VV 330 or 340 at a 131 PF using less powder.  As wobbly said a lighter bullet and faster powder allow you to load closer to 125 PF.
N330       3.5      893      PF   131                    Max.    3.8      942
N340       3.8      892      PF   131                   Max     4.1      960
3N37       4.5      937      PF   137                   Max     4.9      1008
 Part of the enjoyment for me is trying different bullets and loads, BUT wait until you have more experience and remember always err on the side of caution!

[1SOW]

Your plan to work "UP" sounds good.
Do that with your load ladder and find the load(s) that shoot fast and accurately for YOU and your CZ.  Then you may want to fine tune those best loads to the one load that shoots the very best.
After that, THEN  tune the spring to work best with "that load". 

Let us know what you find.

[Wobbly]

I've read most stickies, and am reading trough the posts, but it is really much to comprehend at once.

Toby -
This is what Americans call "drinking from a fire hose" !! 
This initial hill climb will be over by December 2019. 

My excuses for the confusion: I deducted that since both the LOS and Rainier have the same load for N340, are copperplated RN, I could use the 3N37 data for LOS. So my assumption was correct, but I've read over and over there is no assumption only measuring, so I thought it was safer to ask.

The Rainier data is a Fact. The 3N37 data is a Fact. Fact: You can freely substitute bullets of equal weight and construction. So you are moving from fact to fact to construct new facts, just as you should be. Therefore, I see no "assumptions" in your thinking. And that's exactly how safe thinking should be done.

I am now shooting 145 PF (factory ammo) so 137-138 seems adequate to me, but if a minimum load isn't that great, I'll go to a faster powder to achieve the same PF.

PF125 is the minimum; you can always go higher. In fact you should be loading about PF130 to allow for variations that will always creep in. But if your best accuracy and split times are at PF145, then that's where you should be loading.

Starting at 29mm with 4.5gr of 3N37 I'll work up a ladder and see what the results are. We have a chrony at the club I can use if asked politely.

I'd do increments of 0.1gr since you don't want to go too high. By that I mean that it's obvious that "full power" loads are not going to be fun, or comfortable, or provide your best times.... so we can rule out the upper end of the load range.

PS Is there any advantage of a conical point over a round nose?

They simply punch cleaner holes in the target paper to aid in scoring.

Now what about the press setup ?

All the best.

[TdC]

So I finally got my press installed (a 2 year old can be a handful + the holidays)

I made 7 rounds without powder or primer at 29.2mm. All measurements between 29.15 and 29.20 (converted 1.148 - 1.150).
These rounds passed the plunk test with a nice "clunk" and spinned freely with slight pressure from my finger.
I could feed and extract the rounds from different magazines.

So I'm ready for loading the first rounds. I did however notice a very minimal case bulge. Seating depth calculated was 6.45mm (.254 inch)
Crimp was (if I'm correct because I'm no longer at my reloading desk) .375 inch.
Could this bulge be a problem?

greetings
Toby

[TdC]

A remark regarding the PF: I would like to keep it minor for wear on the gun but be able to use it for personal defense.
The regulations are very strict here and I would like to be able to use the same ammo for personal defense (but hopefully never), thus at least with some power behind the round.

Some of the rules regarding gun use (why I'm talking personal defense and ball ammo)
- no expanding ammo allowed
- gun must be kept in safe, with trigger lock and ammo stored separately (and not in a mag) unless you can prove a gun could be a lifesaver.

Anyhow, if I find time I'll load my ladder tomorrow and hopefully I can go testing on Thursday. I will pick the most accurate round that doesn't obliterate my wrists.

Happy New Year!

Toby

[Wobbly]

Have you modified your ideas on your load ? You started wanting "minor PF", now you want to shoot defensive loads. When we say "minor" on this side of the pond, we are generally re-springing the gun so that we can reduce the load to nearly the bare minimum. A lot of us shoot a PF of 128 to 135 for "minor".

With stock springs you're going to have some trouble getting the load much lower than ~145. The 3N37 is going to do that range very well. Maybe even with the minimum load. It's fairly stout stuff.

I thought you were going to follow the load recipe of 29mm OAL. If you want to get closer you can send those 29.2 rounds back through the press without issue. Just another mis-communication.

Case bulge doesn't mean or indicate anything. Remove your barrel and drop the test rounds in. The rounds should drop all the way in and then all the way back out using only the weight of the round. That's the ONLY thing that matters !!

Fully appreciate the comment on the 2 year old. In about 4 years he'll be a fantastic "case feeder". Then they up and go off to college. Enjoy that time together!

[TdC]

Hey,

sorry for the confusion I may have caused, but no I haven't changed. I just wanted to elaborate on the fact that although I'm looking for minor PF I'm not hung on the idea of "as close to minimal PF as possible". I just want an accurate load I can use for IPSC minor but nothing too close to untolerable recoil - it's still a sport. I used this exemple because you commented

According to Vit's own accounting, 3N37 is slower than N340. You've got to realize that the tested powders and reported data are for "normal" firearm loading, that is to say "self defense" and "hunting". Because you are only punching holes in paper, several concerns disappear. Therefore, a more optimal competition powder might be N330. However, this is not to say that you cannot use the 3N37 with good success.

The OAL is my fault: in the first reply we talked about 1.15 inch (which is 29.2mm) afterwards we talked about 29mm. I was kind of spooked by the slight bulging and was wondering if it was necessary to seat the bullet deeper. But it isn't a problem and I will run them through the press again to get close to 29mm or 1.142inch. the rounds drop in, spin and drop out with their own weight.

Sometimes talking one to one doesn't lead to  miscommunication (talking in fragments), but alas there is quite a pond between us 

greetings Toby