Author Topic: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)  (Read 1553 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mike Russell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2018, 10:52:53 AM »
I live in the country, just my wife and I (kids are finally all grown un), so not really worried about over penetration or anything of that sort. My main home defense is a Mossberg 590A1 loaded with 00 Buck with slugs in the side carrier. It's loaded, ready to run...I don't play that "you get a warning of me racking the slide before we go hot"...I know you're not supposed to be there, you know you're not supposed to be there, you came anyway and are obviously a threat.

Now, before anyone goes all up in arms about "shotguns are crap for defense"...my go to weapon when doing high risk boardings in the Gulf War (we had that little embargo thing going on and people did try to get a lot of weapons, explosives, ammo, and other items through) and during drug ops was a Mossberg 590. I know how to move in tight spaces with it, know how to handle it, and am intimately familiar with it. Play all the videos of poorly trained people with birdshot missing (regardless of what the commentator says) from whatever internet guru is in vogue this month, in the hands of a trained person it's deadly and extremely effective...especially in close quarters...first hand experience, not I analyzed a video, or a friend told me, nor any internet speculation.

For those saying but the range is short. So is my house and driveway. There is no need for 300yrd capability when trying to drive someone out and on their way and I'm not going chasing after them, that's the job of the police. If it turns into a standoff, well you don't really have a good defensive plan if you haven't accounted for that and moved to retrieve an alternate weapon (SBR in my case).

For Earl, 2 words. Auditory exclusion. When the adrenaline is running high, you may not even register hearing the shot. Yes, your ears will be ringing afterwards, but it's a protection device our bodies do during high stress, high adrenaline situations. On average, a 12ga is about the same dB as a typical handgun (.45acp, .40s&w, 9mm), though less than magnums (.357, .41, .44) or short barrels (2-3in).

For M1A4ME, we see the same as your example (people wanting 3, 3.5, 10ga, etc because of the reasons you listed) all the time down here in Louisiana deer hunting. Someone gets the newest, biggest, baddest, most powerful, fastest shooting rifle to take down deer...when really, their deer walked because of poor shot placement. Then, when they shoot them with these new behemoth round, they wonder why the deer went 50yrds then died, not realizing they're outside the performance envelope of the round...which in our area tends to be way to close of range for the velocity to drop off enough for the bullet to perform, ending up with it acting like a FMJ and just zipping right through.

Offline s0nspark

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • System Admin
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2018, 11:25:56 AM »
Nice post, Mike - thanks!

Good point about performance envelope, too. :)
"A man's character is his fate."

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2018, 01:13:35 PM »
Mike.  +1 on the hearing issue (or lack of it) when the adrenalin is pumping through your blood vessels.

Grouse hunted for years with a 12 ga. pump (the M37) and never had an issue, even right after a shot, or two.

I've been lying prone on the firing line with M1 Garands and M1A's up and down the line on both sides of me.  All wrapped up in my sling, magazine inserted, a round in the chamber, safety on, waiting of the "FIRE" command and concentrating on my NPOA exercise/technique and when the man shouts, "FIRE", I can hear this funny noise.  I'm in my own little world, just me and the target, but there's this funny noise that suddenly distracts me.  Then I hear it again - and I realize I've left my hearing protection hanging around my neck while the .30 caliber rifles are blasting away with 3 or 4 feet of me on either side.  A quick drop the butt off my shoulder, grab the right side ear plug and put it in my right ear, grab the left side ear plug and put it in my left ear, get the rifle butt back in my shoulder pocket, get the NPOA thing taken care of, move the safety to FIRE and start putting holes in the target.

I did that two or three times that week.  No pain.  No buzzing/humming/ringing issues at all.  Anywhere from 10 to 20 shots or more fired within 20/25 yds. of me.  The human body is a funny thing.

Not that I'd want to do it on a regular basis, but I understand your point.  I asked a former cop about it one time.  A cop who'd been involved in several shooting incidents over his years of service in a large city police department.  His answer about hearing damage when the gunfire started?  "You know, now that you mention it, I don't ever remember my ears/hearing bothering me afterwards."  It may not work that way for everyone, but it does for some folks.

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2018, 01:19:00 PM »
Let me add something about making that shot.

This has to do with grouse hunting, in the WV mountains where that grouse gets up quick and gets his hind parts behind some trees, over the spoil bank or above the cut (strip mine terms relating to the old abandoned/non-reclaimed strip mines dating back to the 40's and 50's of the previous century).

My dad was talking to me one day and he said, "Have you ever noticed how you can miss that first shot on a grouse, pump the shotgun, get back on him and drop him with the second shot before he gets something between you and him?"  I told him that I'd done that several times over the years.  The he said, "Well, think about this some.  If you've got the time to knock him down with your second shot, why don't you take the time to make sure you get him with that first shot?"

Think about it.  Taking the time to make sure it's a good shot is still quicker than missing the first shot and then hitting with the second shot.  No matter how big the target is or how fast it's moving.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline sboone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2018, 03:01:42 PM »
M1A4ME-  I’ve had similar experience with hearing protection, personally I am very prone to hearing loss and at 26 my hearing has been compared to my grandpa, I have tinnitus pretty bad and if I’m trying to sleep in a room completely silent it keeps me up at nigh, gotta have at least a fan running on low or something. 

That being said I’ve got a couple friends who routinely go out and forget  ears on and blast away a couple rounds with their pistols and rifles anyway, load up then head home, every year they pass a hearing test with no problems and no ringing or discomfort

I keep a set of Howard Leigh’s electronics by the bed for myself personally as the electronics give me an edge since they assist my hearing and protect it too, it makes me feel like I’ve got the edge when I can hear again and will always advocate training to don ear pro first.  Even if it doesn’t seem like a gunshot hurts your hearing it will never help it and when it’s gone it’s gone.  I keep a set on my ladies side of the bed too

Offline zaxXxon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2018, 06:44:46 PM »
M1A4ME-  I’ve had similar experience with hearing protection, personally I am very prone to hearing loss and at 26 my hearing has been compared to my grandpa, I have tinnitus pretty bad and if I’m trying to sleep in a room completely silent it keeps me up at nigh, gotta have at least a fan running on low or something. 

That being said I’ve got a couple friends who routinely go out and forget  ears on and blast away a couple rounds with their pistols and rifles anyway, load up then head home, every year they pass a hearing test with no problems and no ringing or discomfort

I keep a set of Howard Leigh’s electronics by the bed for myself personally as the electronics give me an edge since they assist my hearing and protect it too, it makes me feel like I’ve got the edge when I can hear again and will always advocate training to don ear pro first.  Even if it doesn’t seem like a gunshot hurts your hearing it will never help it and when it’s gone it’s gone.  I keep a set on my ladies side of the bed too
I like that idea about the electronic assist ear pro, but doesnt it come through in mono?  Would that impact your spacial awareness in that you would have trouble knowing where a sound is coming from?

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Offline s0nspark

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • System Admin
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2018, 07:29:33 PM »
I like that idea about the electronic assist ear pro, but doesnt it come through in mono?  Would that impact your spacial awareness in that you would have trouble knowing where a sound is coming from?

If I’m not mistaken the Howard Leight active earpro is stereo. There are two mics, anyway.
"A man's character is his fate."

Offline sboone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2018, 07:37:26 PM »
Maybe? I don’t really notice but the way my house is there’s only one direction to come from without going straight through a wall or window so I consider it a non issue, as someone said before if you stay static in your position they will likely come to you anyway so I would say hearing something and not being 100% sure we’re it came from is better than not hearing it at all.  I.E. hearing footsteps and knowing someone in your house is on the move vs not hearing them at all.  I also keep random pocket change at strategic locations (not in front of windows or visible areas from the outside, minimize the “valuable” items as much as reasonably possible from outside view) with the idea that someone will think it’s easy pickings on their way through and scoop it up potentially giving away their position, then they win a Darwin Award

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2018, 07:40:50 PM »
I guess hearing may be sort of like eyesight when it comes to the benefit of having both sides working well at the same time.

As my dad got older he began to lose his hearing in his right ear (23 years in the Air Force working around jets didn't help any).  He eventually quit hunting.  He said he couldn't tell where something was at.  Was the squirrel he could hear barking to the left, or to the right?  The noise in the leaves, was it in front of him or behind him?  He got really frustrated there and just finally quit because he didn't enjoy it anymore.

They say the same about being able to see with only one eye - no depth perception - hard to tell how far away something is from you.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Earl Keese

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2732
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2018, 07:52:04 PM »
Regarding auditory exclusion, I can't train for it so I won't count on it. Even though I mentioned ear pro, my concern is more directed to disorientation from the concussive blast(shotgun). I've never fired a shotgun  or handgun in a house so I don't know if there's a big difference. There's no doubt in my mind that for someone properly trained, a shotgun is undeniably effective. In the future, I hope to take Tom Givens' shotgun class. Thus far, my training has been focused on handguns as for my purpose, they seemed to be the most useful all around.

Offline Mike Russell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2018, 08:13:04 PM »
Regarding auditory exclusion, I can't train for it so I won't count on it. Even though I mentioned ear pro, my concern is more directed to disorientation from the concussive blast(shotgun).

Nobody trains for auditory exclusion, it's a body's natural reaction...it will happen whether you have ear pro or not.

As far as concussive blast, unless you're planning on standing on the business end, it's not bad. There is enough air volume and space in a house for the wave to flow without over pressuring, like it would in a car with the windows rolled up.

Offline Earl Keese

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2732
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2018, 09:21:02 PM »
Regarding auditory exclusion, I can't train for it so I won't count on it. Even though I mentioned ear pro, my concern is more directed to disorientation from the concussive blast(shotgun).

Nobody trains for auditory exclusion, it's a body's natural reaction...it will happen whether you have ear pro or not.

As far as concussive blast, unless you're planning on standing on the business end, it's not bad. There is enough air volume and space in a house for the wave to flow without over pressuring, like it would in a car with the windows rolled up.
I didn't mean to suggest that it could be trained for. You've got the experience with shotguns in confined spaces, so your feedback is valuable. Regarding the wave/air volume, I've been on indoor ranges with people shooting shotguns and it was somewhat uncomfortable. I figured it would be more so in a more confined space. Interesting to hear otherwise.

Offline zaxXxon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2018, 12:00:35 AM »
Regarding auditory exclusion, I can't train for it so I won't count on it. Even though I mentioned ear pro, my concern is more directed to disorientation from the concussive blast(shotgun).

Nobody trains for auditory exclusion, it's a body's natural reaction...it will happen whether you have ear pro or not.

As far as concussive blast, unless you're planning on standing on the business end, it's not bad. There is enough air volume and space in a house for the wave to flow without over pressuring, like it would in a car with the windows rolled up.
I didn't mean to suggest that it could be trained for. You've got the experience with shotguns in confined spaces, so your feedback is valuable. Regarding the wave/air volume, I've been on indoor ranges with people shooting shotguns and it was somewhat uncomfortable. I figured it would be more so in a more confined space. Interesting to hear otherwise.
I've never shot a shotgun  in a non ventilated enclosed space.  Is it a situation where you will quickly lose the ability to see due to smoke?  I'd bet just like when using your high beams in the road a high lumen weapon light may be mitigated/nullified due to drywall dust and smoke, or am I blowing smoke?

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Offline zaxXxon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2018, 12:02:56 AM »
I guess hearing may be sort of like eyesight when it comes to the benefit of having both sides working well at the same time.

As my dad got older he began to lose his hearing in his right ear (23 years in the Air Force working around jets didn't help any).  He eventually quit hunting.  He said he couldn't tell where something was at.  Was the squirrel he could hear barking to the left, or to the right?  The noise in the leaves, was it in front of him or behind him?  He got really frustrated there and just finally quit because he didn't enjoy it anymore.

They say the same about being able to see with only one eye - no depth perception - hard to tell how far away something is from you.
I'm paranoid about a multiple attacker scenario where being able to separate noises and their sources would be beneficial.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Offline Mike Russell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2018, 10:58:17 AM »
Regarding the wave/air volume, I've been on indoor ranges with people shooting shotguns and it was somewhat uncomfortable. I figured it would be more so in a more confined space. Interesting to hear otherwise.

We must have a difference of opinion in what is uncomfortable. We have an indoor range nearby, nothing special, it's two 25yrd ranges separated by cinder block walls and swinging doors (no sealing surfaces). I don't really notice that much of a concussive force inside there when I've been an people were shooting shotguns. Did notice, but wasn't bothered by a guy doing a prelim sight in on his .300WinMag Winchester. My house has a much greater volume of air in it than that range, with multiple avenues for the air to flow and not reverb...however, if you were to step into our guest bath and shut the door I can see it becoming quite uncomfortable (the room is approx 6x12ft). While you can't train for it, you will probably not even notice it when the adrenaline is flowing. During training, I'd fired into a room smaller than our bathroom in rapid succession and never really noticed it. Don't overthink it, the only way you're going to notice in an emergency situation is if you have some sort of serious inner ear issues.

One of the really serious issues I'll cover in my response to zaxXxon, who brought up a really good point.