Author Topic: Single action 99021 for carry?  (Read 802 times)

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Offline ireallydontknow

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Single action 99021 for carry?
« on: January 08, 2018, 04:49:05 PM »
So I'm considering converting my compact CZ into a single action gun for carry. I still have a couple questions about the conversion though.

This is the trigger that I was looking at:
https://cajungunworks.com/product/straight-single-action-aluminum-trigger/

Loosely organized questions and ramblings below:

1. Is it possible to do the conversion with the firing pin block intact? What are the effects of doing so?
2. I still want the pre-travel for a margin of safety, but I want to reduce the creep on the trigger. Is this possible with the CGW trigger?
3. Hammers. I'm sort of lost here. Would this be the better option than changing the trigger if all I want is a crisper break?
4. Is it possible to set the trigger more forward? The stock single action trigger is a bit too far back, and I find myself shooting with the first knuckle instead of the pad of my finger.


Also some confusion between these two hammers. Is it just an aesthetics thing?:
https://cajungunworks.com/product/80006-ring-hammer-only/
https://cajungunworks.com/product/manual-safety-blue-steel-hammer/
 

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks.


Online M1A4ME

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Re: Single action 99021 for carry?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 09:00:31 PM »
I converted one of mine to SAO a few months back.

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=90727.0

I left the firing pin block operational in mine.  I had some issues, finally got it figured out and running fine.

At least one other member has also converted one of these to SAO.  Troubles like I had can be a one pistol thing.  Just a small amount of differenced in locations/size/angle of pieces/pins/movement range can result in an issue.

Good luck.  I went back and looked through my earlier thread.  Saw my SA trigger pull after the work was 2&1/4 lbs.  I was wondering just the other day (didn't remember) the results.  That means the only thing I have with a lighter trigger than the SP01 Compact is my Tactical Sport .40 S&W, it's 1&3/4 lbs.  Scary light for a big pistol.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline ireallydontknow

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Re: Single action 99021 for carry?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 11:28:55 PM »
Do you happen to carry your SAO guns? Would you say the trigger is too light for that purpose?

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Single action 99021 for carry?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 01:57:17 AM »
So I'm considering converting my compact CZ into a single action gun for carry. I still have a couple questions about the conversion though.

This is the trigger that I was looking at:
https://cajungunworks.com/product/straight-single-action-aluminum-trigger/

Loosely organized questions and ramblings below:

I have a classic CZ 75 Compact in SAO with the FPB still installed and one of my SP-01 Compacts without the FPB. I've converted a few others along the way and M1A4Me ran into a unique problem I haven't encountered or heard of before. It happens... Tolerance stacking is just a reality that creeps up sometimes.

Quote
1. Is it possible to do the conversion with the firing pin block intact? What are the effects of doing so?

It is totally possible. You just have the longer reset that comes with the firing pin block. You can get short reset systems for that as well.
Here's videos on how to do the SAO conversion, either way.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=85985.0


Quote
2. I still want the pre-travel for a margin of safety, but I want to reduce the creep on the trigger. Is this possible with the CGW trigger?

The pre-travel... Just so we are on the same page.
> When the trigger is being pulled back and it is taking up slack and the hammer is NOT caming back, that is disengaging the firing pin block safety.
> When the trigger is being pulled and the hammer is caming back is rotating the sear to drop the hammer. We can call this the creep...
Snag a CZC Competition Hammer or CGW Race hammer and the nasty heavy creep from the hammer caming will be resovled.
The pre-travel that is before hammer caming can safely be reduced with a Short Reset System. The SAO trigger allows you to stop the trigger right at the correct moment, but it doesn't adjust anything internally to shorten the reset and remove some of the pre-travel.


Quote
3. Hammers. I'm sort of lost here. Would this be the better option than changing the trigger if all I want is a crisper break?
Short Answer, Yes! The CZC Competition and CGW Race Hammers are everything you could hope for in a clean, short, incredible trigger break.
Long Answer, The SAO trigger is flat and very very nice to shoot. I converted my classic CZ 75 Compact to SAO when I first got it. Left the firing pin block system in, got the short reset system, and put in a CZC Competition Hammer (along with all the springs and polishing). I carried that for several years in SAO, cocked and locked! I loved it! But, the flat trigger is preferential and you then have to carry cocked and locked.


Quote
4. Is it possible to set the trigger more forward? The stock single action trigger is a bit too far back, and I find myself shooting with the first knuckle instead of the pad of my finger.

I think I remember seeing some triggers like that, but not at CZ Custom or CGW. I'll go look around. Are you shooting with the palm swell grips? I'm pretty envious of your problem... So much so that it almost makes me mad knowing people out there have such beautifully large hands and how that could help shoot pistols. Anyway, I'll go see if I can find the longer reach trigger, if it exists.

Quote
Also some confusion between these two hammers. Is it just an aesthetics thing?:
https://cajungunworks.com/product/80006-ring-hammer-only/
https://cajungunworks.com/product/manual-safety-blue-steel-hammer/

The CGW Ring Hammer is a drop in hammer with no fitting required. You know, I haven't asked Scott and David how they did it... It might have slightly taller hammer hooks with a little more sear to hammer hook engagement than the Competition and Race Hammers, but I have no idea. The trigger pull weight is about the same as their Race Hammer.

The Race hammer will require fitting the sear arm to the safety bar. Not a bad process, just takes patience and some time. There are videos on that thread showing how to do it. CGW also sells an adjustable sear that just requires twisting the set screw and using loc-tite to hold it in place. BTW the CZC Competition Hammer will require fitting just like the Race Hammer.

Do you happen to carry your SAO guns? Would you say the trigger is too light for that purpose?

I carried my Classic 75 Compact for a long time. Trigger pull is just under 3 lbs. I trained with it so it was never an issue. My CZ's with the CZC Competition Hammer generally come in with a little lighter trigger pull on SA than the CGW Race Hammer was out of the box. It's the difference of 6-8 ounces in my experience though. My lightest trigger is around the same weight as M1A4ME's Tactical Sport. Not a carry pistol. If someone trains all day with a heavy trigger and carries a CZ with a nice 3.5 lb trigger, then there may be problems, but they are based in training, not the trigger itself.
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Online M1A4ME

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Re: Single action 99021 for carry?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 06:55:53 AM »
I only own safety model CZ's.  I have some Omega models and they have the safety levers installed (the decockers were removed and safeties installed shortly after I walked in the door from the gun show.)  I always carry cocked and locked. 

I have not carried my "SP01" Compact.  I want to shoot it more.  Combination of confidence building in the reliability and accuracy departments.  It won't be operated any differently than the P07 or CZ 75 Compact I normally carry every day (cocked and locked) but the new gun needs to be shot more.  I may get a light for it (the only P01 holster I have right now was bought for the urban gray P01 which has a TLR3 on it) so it fits my one and only holster better.  Or buy another holster or two.

Good luck with yours.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline ireallydontknow

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Re: Single action 99021 for carry?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 11:20:45 AM »
Wow! Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions. Wasn't expecting everything in one go :) .

Quote
You can get short reset systems for that as well.
Here's videos on how to do the SAO conversion, either way.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=85985.0

I don't get to do rapid fire at my range so despite shooting roughly 2k rounds through my gun, I haven't really been able to notice where the gun resets.

Quote
The pre-travel... Just so we are on the same page.
> When the trigger is being pulled back and it is taking up slack and the hammer is NOT caming back, that is disengaging the firing pin block safety.
> When the trigger is being pulled and the hammer is caming back is rotating the sear to drop the hammer. We can call this the creep...
Snag a CZC Competition Hammer or CGW Race hammer and the nasty heavy creep from the hammer caming will be resovled.
The pre-travel that is before hammer caming can safely be reduced with a Short Reset System. The SAO trigger allows you to stop the trigger right at the correct moment, but it doesn't adjust anything internally to shorten the reset and remove some of the pre-travel.

I believe we are on the same page here. It's the camming of the hammer that I want to reduce. Seems like leaving in the firing pin block is exactly what I need since I want that pre-travel intact. When you say "The SAO trigger allows you to stop the trigger right at the correct moment," do you mean that you can position the trigger to rest closer to the break? Also, does this mean that having JUST the SAO trigger wouldn't really do anything for the trigger pull internally (other than removing double action of course)?

Quote
I think I remember seeing some triggers like that, but not at CZ Custom or CGW. I'll go look around. Are you shooting with the palm swell grips? I'm pretty envious of your problem... So much so that it almost makes me mad knowing people out there have such beautifully large hands and how that could help shoot pistols. Anyway, I'll go see if I can find the longer reach trigger, if it exists.

I've actually been flipping back and forth between the rubber palm swell grips and a set of thin Pachmayrs at the range. I would say that I have medium hands, but the rubber grips place the trigger between the first knuckle and the pad of my finger. It's close to perfect, but a slight nudge forward would be nice. The Paychmayr grips have been on my gun more often now since I carry this gun, and accessing the safety is sort of important  :D . The thumb shelf on the rubber grip has been blocking me. The thinner grips place the trigger right on the knuckle. Perhaps once I get an extended safety, I'll change back to the rubber grips.

Quote
The CGW Ring Hammer is a drop in hammer with no fitting required. You know, I haven't asked Scott and David how they did it... It might have slightly taller hammer hooks with a little more sear to hammer hook engagement than the Competition and Race Hammers, but I have no idea. The trigger pull weight is about the same as their Race Hammer.

The Race hammer will require fitting the sear arm to the safety bar. Not a bad process, just takes patience and some time. There are videos on that thread showing how to do it. CGW also sells an adjustable sear that just requires twisting the set screw and using loc-tite to hold it in place. BTW the CZC Competition Hammer will require fitting just like the Race Hammer.

I'm sort of torn on this decision. I like the aesthetics of the Race hammer, but I'm worried about turning my gun full auto or something. If only CGW made a drop in part. Guess I'll be spending some time on all those videos.

edit: Just watched the relevant videos, and that actually looks fairly simple. Race hammer it is!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 11:31:27 AM by ireallydontknow »

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Single action 99021 for carry?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 11:54:18 AM »
Wow! Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions. Wasn't expecting everything in one go :) .


Quote
You can get short reset systems for that as well.
Here's videos on how to do the SAO conversion, either way.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=85985.0

I don't get to do rapid fire at my range so despite shooting roughly 2k rounds through my gun, I haven't really been able to notice where the gun resets.

Quote
The pre-travel... Just so we are on the same page.
> When the trigger is being pulled back and it is taking up slack and the hammer is NOT caming back, that is disengaging the firing pin block safety.
> When the trigger is being pulled and the hammer is caming back is rotating the sear to drop the hammer. We can call this the creep...
Snag a CZC Competition Hammer or CGW Race hammer and the nasty heavy creep from the hammer caming will be resovled.
The pre-travel that is before hammer caming can safely be reduced with a Short Reset System. The SAO trigger allows you to stop the trigger right at the correct moment, but it doesn't adjust anything internally to shorten the reset and remove some of the pre-travel.

I believe we are on the same page here. It's the camming of the hammer that I want to reduce. Seems like leaving in the firing pin block is exactly what I need since I want that pre-travel intact. When you say "The SAO trigger allows you to stop the trigger right at the correct moment," do you mean that you can position the trigger to rest closer to the break? Also, does this mean that having JUST the SAO trigger wouldn't really do anything for the trigger pull internally (other than removing double action of course)?

Quote
I think I remember seeing some triggers like that, but not at CZ Custom or CGW. I'll go look around. Are you shooting with the palm swell grips? I'm pretty envious of your problem... So much so that it almost makes me mad knowing people out there have such beautifully large hands and how that could help shoot pistols. Anyway, I'll go see if I can find the longer reach trigger, if it exists.

I've actually been flipping back and forth between the rubber palm swell grips and a set of thin Pachmayrs at the range. I would say that I have medium hands, but the rubber grips place the trigger between the first knuckle and the pad of my finger. It's close to perfect, but a slight nudge forward would be nice. The Paychmayr grips have been on my gun more often now since I carry this gun, and accessing the safety is sort of important  :D . The thumb shelf on the rubber grip has been blocking me. The thinner grips place the trigger right on the knuckle. Perhaps once I get an extended safety, I'll change back to the rubber grips.

Quote
The CGW Ring Hammer is a drop in hammer with no fitting required. You know, I haven't asked Scott and David how they did it... It might have slightly taller hammer hooks with a little more sear to hammer hook engagement than the Competition and Race Hammers, but I have no idea. The trigger pull weight is about the same as their Race Hammer.

The Race hammer will require fitting the sear arm to the safety bar. Not a bad process, just takes patience and some time. There are videos on that thread showing how to do it. CGW also sells an adjustable sear that just requires twisting the set screw and using loc-tite to hold it in place. BTW the CZC Competition Hammer will require fitting just like the Race Hammer.

I'm sort of torn on this decision. I like the aesthetics of the Race hammer, but I'm worried about turning my gun full auto or something. If only CGW made a drop in part. Guess I'll be spending some time on all those videos.

edit: Just watched the relevant videos, and that actually looks fairly simple. Race hammer it is!

You're welcome. I can get to answering questions a lot better when I am at home on my laptop... Typing responses on the phone just sucks.

For the hammer camming and how that interaction happens. I think you get it too, but to be detailed I will snag a quick video tonight when I get home. It'll be after I get the kids to bed and I'll have to work through the GoPro so it'll be late tonight. But I think it is worth while to do a decent video explaining this for those who are new to the CZ platform. To be honest... I'll probably try and get it nice enough to throw on my list of videos in the pinned thread, so I may get the video tonight and the editing tomorrow night. Either way, coming in the next 2-3 days will be a video explaining this system.

The SAO trigger can rest as close to the Single Action RESET. This is where the video will help, but... If you grab your pistol to dry fire. Pull the trigger in Single Action. Hold the trigger to the rear, cycle the slide to re-cock the hammer. Now, you can slowly let the trigger forward to reset. Where it clicks to be reset is the spot the SAO trigger can be set to.

During the forward motion of the trigger the trigger bar is moving forward and reseting under the sear arm and the Firing Pine Block Lifter Arm. The Firing Pin Block Lifter Arm requires it to travel further forward and is the clicking of the reset as the trigger bar can pop forward and up, into place where is can press back against the FPB Lifter Arm and Sear Arm. Again, I will show this in the video, but that is conceptually what is happening.

The SAO allows you to make sure there is just the right amount of forward travel for that reset. You are correct, that the SAO trigger does not change anything about the FPB Lifter Arm and thus does not change where the reset occurs. The SAO trigger just removes Double Action and gives you a sweet flat trigger with pre and post travel screws.

Gotta run, hope there aren't major typos as I ran out of time to proof. i will be on later to fix anything and answer any other questions.
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Online M1A4ME

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Re: Single action 99021 for carry?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 04:19:17 PM »
I don't think you can get "full auto" by replacing the hammer.  The problem you can get is either not being able to engage the safety (cam on the left side safety shaft is too tall and won't go under the arm that stick out on the front of the sear) or the cam is too low and does not lock the sear in place when moved to the SAFE position and could allow the trigger bar to move the sear enough to release the hammer (even on SAFE.)

CGW offers their adjustable sear, which I think was mentioned earlier in the thread by someone - Scarlett Pistol??) which makes setting up their race hammer much faster/easier.  I have done it both ways.  On my CZ 75 Compact to CZ 85 Compact (clone) project I installed a Pre B like spur hammer.  I'm not joking/kidding.  I had the left side safety out 24 times to stone some metal off the cam, test to see it the cam would turn under the arm on the front of the sear, then pull it out to stone some more metal off, put it back in to test it, etc., etc., etc.  over and over and over again till I got it just right.  If you don't remove enough metal from the right spot on the cam the cam can't go under the sear arm and lock it in the safe position.  If you take too much metal off the cam it can't lock the sear in place so you still fire the pistol when the safety was on.

The adjustable sear takes all that stoning/filing/fitting out of the pictures.  I've used two of them now with no issues.  Just follow the instructions and remember to degrease the threads of the set screw and the threads in the arm of the sear prior to putting the Loctite on the screw threads.

When you get done, to a pencil test.  Mine sounded just fine and seemed to work just fine.  I took it to the range to shoot it and couldn't get it to make the banging sound and put holes in the paper.  It looked and functioned fine - it's just that the firing pin block lifting arm was out of position (so it wasn't raising the block up and out of the way of the firing pin) and not resetting because of that trigger to frame contact I mentioned.  Had a done a pencil test I'd have know that before I ever wiped it off and put it in the box so I could take it to the range.

If you haven't heard of the pencil test it's easy.  Double check to make sure you have no magazine in the pistol and no round in the chamber.  Point the muzzle up, drop a pencil in the barrel so that it drops all the way in and then pull the trigger to let the hammer fall.  The hammer hits the firing pin and the firing pin strikes the pencil and makes it bounce (usually all the way out of the muzzle on hammer fired pistols.  If the pencil doesn't move, you've got a problem that's keeping that firing pin lifting block from being moved upwards and out of the way of the firing pin.

Good luck.  They are nice little pistols.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

 

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