Author Topic: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?  (Read 4125 times)

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Offline s0nspark

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2018, 04:31:02 PM »
Had my P09 done by CGW with the optional DPP rear sight. It doesn't co-witness. I have a Sig P320 with an RMR setup that is perfect cowitness. If I were to do it again with the CZs (which I will) they will be RMR on the p07 (next) and either an RMR or DPP on the P09 but done by Primary Machine. They fact they can/will cut the rear dove tail for glock sights is huge. Gives you way more options.

I was big on co-witness at first but now am not so committed to it in practice... treating the dot and irons as separate really isn't bad since they are rarely used together once you get used to running the dot.
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Offline Vinny

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2018, 06:39:17 PM »
Agree with s0nspark, after a significant amount of practice, with both eyes fully focused on the TARGET, the red dot just comes into the reticle. I don't even think about the irons.  However, I still believe a Defensive gun should have co-witness irons.

Credit to Raining Brass of Primary who directed me to this:
Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics did an exhaustive study of handgun mini RDS; testing virtually every model under extreme conditions, with a slant toward Military and LE use.  Statistical analysis of RDS vs Irons vs Point-shoot. Great info for anyone who hasn't seen this, here's a link to the 60+ page report on their findings, and a summary.

https://lockedback.com/results-4-year-handgun-red-dot-study-sage-dynamics/
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 06:51:15 PM by Vinny »
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Offline ARodPDT117

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2018, 01:16:57 PM »
I don't have any issue running the dot by itself, but my preference is to have cowitness ability for a couple reasons. If the red should ever fail for any reason you are still good to go, and having another point of reference to line up is always quality. Co-witness does help find the dot when you are starting out as mentioned but after practice that does become moot and I wouldn't even say practice as much as being fundamentally sound with your draw and point, it should all line up anyway.

Offline DOC 1500

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2018, 03:50:30 PM »
IMHO, unless it's long-distance self-defense, your muscle memory should kick in and you should be on target within 20 feet without cowitness.
 unload your weapon, put it in your holster, picking Target in the room you're in, 15-20 ft away, close your eyes draw put your pistol on target then open your eyes, see where it's pointing.
 when you practice you should be drawing from The holster every time you shoot. It's not target practice  unless you're practicing for self-defense !
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Offline SlvrDragon50

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 05:29:13 PM »




Got samples in. Left to right, sniper grey, stone grey, cobalt kinetics slate, and blue titanium.

Sometimes I can see the difference between the sniper and stone grey. If you told me that they were actually the same color but just labeled differently, I'd believe you. The CK Slate is beautiful with a stronger blue tint. The blue titanium looks more teal to me.


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« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 05:33:31 PM by SlvrDragon50 »

Offline Vinny

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2018, 07:59:40 PM »
That Cobalt looks really nice. Stone grey too.

I got my P-07 SR slide back from Primary and I'm thrilled with the results.  I chose Titanium Cerakote and I'm really pleased.
The workmanship is excellent in every way, and Primary's Cerakote application is impeccable. IMO way better than factory, and the slide feels so much smoother and 'locked up', with greater lubricity. I ran 100 of my favorite JHP and it's deadly accurate on 3" bulls eye stick-ems out to 20+ yards offhand.

When I have them do my P-09 SR (after I decide on the optic) Although I really like the Titanium; I'll probably go with a different slide color, maybe the Cobalt, or possibly Tungsten.  I'd like to see a few more CZ's with Cerakote colors; so post 'em up guys!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 08:42:02 PM by Vinny »
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Offline Vinny

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2018, 08:06:10 PM »
Here's what the Vortex Venom looks like from the 'Driver's Seat': 
First Image is with RDS 'ON', Second Image is with RDS 'OFF' so you can see how co-witness works with a stock CZ tritium front Suppressor sight. Sorry it's a little off center, hard to hold cam, gun, and press button.

Image Above RDS ON
Image Below is just co-witness front sight with RDS OFF.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 08:09:55 PM by Vinny »
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Offline BrazeauRacing

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2018, 10:15:56 AM »
Here's what the Vortex Venom looks like from the 'Driver's Seat': 
First Image is with RDS 'ON', Second Image is with RDS 'OFF' so you can see how co-witness works with a stock CZ tritium front Suppressor sight.
I like this setup!

I have a Burris FF3 on my UG P-09 (competition use) and on my UG P-07 (concealed carry).  The FF3 has a single vertical white line on the back of the housing that I can use to pseudo co-witness with a tall front sight blade.  I've always liked this setup because it leaves the window relatively clear and the front sight gives me a quick reference to align the gun in case the dot is not visible when I bring the gun up in less than ideal positions (strong hand only or weak hand only).  This pseudo co-witness came in really handy last weekend at a local action pistol match where the dot just turned off by itself while I was engaging the last two targets of the last stage of the day.  I brought the gun up, no red dot, quickly used the front sight and rear vertical line to put A-zone hits on two targets that were about 7 yards away.  Later I discovered that the battery cover on the FF3 had come loose and was about 1/4 turn from flying off into oblivion!  I need to be more thorough with my equipment checks before each match, but this was a great reminder that the dot WILL fail at some point for a variety of reasons!  It also confirmed that the front sight co-witness is usable quickly in the event of a failure.

I know the preferred red dot for concealed carry is the RMR due to it's durability, but the one I have on a Polymer 80 Glock 19 that I built with co-witness suppressor height sights has a very crowded view through its small window.  If it was my only gun, and I didn't have another frame of reference with the Burris FF3, then I'd probably be fine with it, but I prefer the spacious window of the FF3 (similar to the Venom, Viper, and DPP).  I know I'm not going to be able to use my FF3 like a hammer to repair a fence with a handful of nails like I'd be able to do with an RMR, but I have no regrets with the FF3.  My Shadow 2 slide is currently being milled for a FF3.




« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:47:37 AM by BrazeauRacing »

Offline Vinny

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2018, 11:16:35 AM »
Chuck,  When I was searching the web for CZ Cerakote finish colors, I ran across a few of yours. Really nice details on your guns!

Thanks for those images, and confirmation of the FF3 set-up. Almost like the XS Big Dot if the RDS goes out. The Burris and Venom take the same mount, so I believe they're somewhat interchangeable.

I've been experimenting with different RDS set-ups, including RMR, DPP, Vortex Venom, Sig Romeo 1, and JPoint.
I agree with you on the RMR.  I've relegated it to my least used gun.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 12:00:14 PM by Vinny »
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Offline BrazeauRacing

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2018, 01:10:09 PM »
Thanks Vinny!  I definitely would not consider using an RMR on a competition gun.  The thick frame around the window blocks too much of the target for my preference. I really wish the Shield RMS had a glass lens instead of polycarbonate, as I love its overall compact size while still having a relatively unobstructed view window.  I wouldn't expect the RMS to be as durable as the RMR, but I don't want to have to baby the thing to keep from scratching the lens.  I freak out whenever I get a scratch on my eyeglasses! The DPP seems like the perfect red dot for competition with it's large window, but I'll continue on with my FF3's since I already have several of them.

Offline Vinny

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 05:23:57 PM »
Thanks Vinny!  I definitely would not consider using an RMR on a competition gun.  The thick frame around the window blocks too much of the target for my preference. I really wish the Shield RMS had a glass lens instead of polycarbonate, as I love its overall compact size while still having a relatively unobstructed view window.  I wouldn't expect the RMS to be as durable as the RMR, but I don't want to have to baby the thing to keep from scratching the lens.  I freak out whenever I get a scratch on my eyeglasses! The DPP seems like the perfect red dot for competition with it's large window, but I'll continue on with my FF3's since I already have several of them.

Chuck, It's interesting and fun to prepare and tune guns for specific purposes. I can see from your website  that you've taken your collection to a fine art form. Really nice work. (Your motorcycles too!).  Competition, Carry, Range/BullsEye, HD; I think each mini-RDS has advantages/disadvantages depending upon intended use.  I'm still at the experimental stage finding my way through the plethora of options to develop (hopefully) an RDS pistol for each intended purpose. I'm a tinkerer by nature and enjoy shooting, a lot.  ::) 
You'll note in my collection below that the P-09 is missing a RDS. I have another DPP 7.5 MOA  that I'm thinking might be good for competition gun, but I've got to play out my hand with what I've got before I decide to send it off for milling. I'm leaning toward burnt bronze though. But, that could change too. Manual of arms currently ALL DA/SA Decockers; although of course the P-07/09 and FNX can be run SA cocked/locked.

Clockwise from 9 o'clock:
Sig 229 Legion RX
CZ P-07 with Venom
FNH-FNX 45 Tactical with RMR
CZ P-07 with DPP
CZ SP-01 Tactical with J-point
CZ  P-09 with ????
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 11:10:48 AM by Vinny, Reason: typo »
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Offline Mccian

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2018, 07:41:43 AM »
Nice informative thread fellas.... thanks for sharing your experiences and knowledge.


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Offline HST

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2018, 08:19:33 AM »
Vinny seeing how you have one of every manufacturers red dot mounted , which one do you like the best so far ?
I have two venoms and when i get around to mounting another one i was thinking of trying something else.
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Offline Vinny

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2018, 09:29:12 AM »
Vinny seeing how you have one of every manufacturers red dot mounted , which one do you like the best so far ?
I have two venoms and when i get around to mounting another one i was thinking of trying something else.

That's a great question, and I have to answer in a couple of ways. But remember I haven't fully decided but so far.....here goes....I'll probably catch a lot of flak for my choices.  ::)

For HD I like the JPoint (or Shield RMS-Shield makes the lower priced JPoint) on the SP-01. JPoint because it stays ON 24/7, automatically adjusts to ambient light, also adjusts when I turn flashlight on target, has a reasonable size reticle window, and 4 moa dot is mid-size. Because it auto dims in storage, battery lasts YEARS. I know some complain that it's a polymer body and lens but it has a built-in notch for co-witness and sits very low. In fact, I mounted it using the dovetail without milling and it only required a .275 front sight to co-witness. Much lower than a plate-like mount that sits above the dovetail (IE: Springer). Whole set-up cost me <$325. I posted a how-to DIY and parts list Dec 31st in CZ 75 Forum. If you have a 75 Full-size or Compact, this is a cost-effective way to put your toe in the water without milling yet keeping it low. Of course, I do like my P-07's with milled in RDS too.

Although I haven't tried Competition yet with RDS; I would defer and agree with others that the DPP is a great set-up. Rugged (like a tank, and it's about the largest mini-red dot). There's a 7.5 moa DPP available that shows a sizable 'triangle' red dot that's fast on target acquisition. Just place the triangle center-mass, Bingo! But, you can adjust your sight picture to use the top of the triangle as a more pin-point POA. There's also a 2.5 moa for more overall pin-point accuracy. You can adjust the brightness on either model manually to conditions. I have both 2.5 and 7.5 moa DPP's.

For Range/Target shooting; any of the models with a lower (pin-point) moa will work. The Burris FF3 or Venom are very cost-effective and fit the same mount holes. Also satisfactory for doing double-duty for HD too.

For Carry-Optics I really like the Sig 229 Legion RX.  It's so new it isn't even on Sig's website yet. But, take my opinion with a grain of salt because I don't EDC a gun this size in hot FLA I pocket carry a small Sig.
Second choice would be the P-07 with a milled-in optic. Considering holstering, the DPP would be too tall, so I would chose either a Vortex Viper or Shield RMS to keep the co-witness sights as short as possible.

The Sig 229 RX comes all set up with great co-witness night sights that are very accurate without the RDS, and the Romeo 1 Dot works very well; turns on with motion, but doesn't self adjust like the JPoint or Shield RMS. However, this is a $1500 gun so it's probably not a fair comparison. Although, if you really count the cost of RDS, Milling, good co-witness sights, AND the gun, $$ invested can mount up fast.
I have a P-01 that I might try mounting a JPoint (Like I did on SP-01 above). All-in only $325 and it stays on 24/7 and auto adjusts. Just can't use it as a hammer. LOL

Again, this is only my limited personal observations, reading a lot, and listening to those in the know like s0nespark who has EDC an RDS a considerable time, and Raining Brass from Primary who has seen and tried 'em all. The 64 page Whitepaper by Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics is very thorough but I believe overemphasizes durability, but for LEO that might be most important. JMHO....YMMV
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:43:56 AM by Vinny »
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Offline s0nspark

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Re: Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2018, 12:18:03 PM »
Vinny seeing how you have one of every manufacturers red dot mounted , which one do you like the best so far ?
I have two venoms and when i get around to mounting another one i was thinking of trying something else.

That's a great question, and I have to answer in a couple of ways. But remember I haven't fully decided but so far.....here goes....I'll probably catch a lot of flak for my choices.  ::)

For HD I like the JPoint (or Shield RMS-Shield makes the lower priced JPoint) on the SP-01. JPoint because it stays ON 24/7, automatically adjusts to ambient light, also adjusts when I turn flashlight on target, has a reasonable size reticle window, and 4 moa dot is mid-size. I know some complain that it's a polymer body and lens but it has a built-in notch for co-witness and sits very low. In fact, I mounted it using the dovetail without milling and it only required a .275 front sight to co-witness. Whole set-up cost me <$325. I posted a how-to DIY and parts list Dec 31st in CZ 75 Forum. If you have a 75 Full-size or Compact, this is a cost-effective way to put your toe in the water without milling. Of course, I do like my P-07's too.

Although I haven't tried Competition yet with RDS; I would defer and agree with others that the DPP is a great set-up. Rugged (like a tank, and it's about the largest mini-red dot). There's a 7.5 moa DPP available that shows a sizable 'triangle' red dot that's fast on target acquisition. Just place the triangle center-mass, Bingo! But, you can adjust your sight picture to use the top of the triangle as a more pin-point POA. There's also a 2.5 moa for more overall pin-point accuracy. You can adjust the brightness on either model manually to conditions. I have both 2.5 and 7.5 moa DPP's.

For Range/Target shooting; any of the models with a lower (pin-point) moa will work. The Burris FF3 or Venom are very cost-effective and fit the same mount holes. Also satisfactory for doing double-duty for HD too.

For Carry-Optics I really like the Sig 229 Legion RX.  It's so new it isn't even on Sig's website yet. But, take my opinion with a grain of salt because I don't EDC a gun this size in hot FLA I pocket carry a small Sig.
Second choice would be the P-07 with a milled-in optic. Considering holstering, the DPP would be too tall, so I would chose either a Vortex Viper or Shield RMS to keep the co-witness sights as short as possible.

The Sig 229 RX comes all set up with great co-witness night sights that are very accurate without the RDS, and the Romeo 1 Dot works very well; turns on with motion, but doesn't self adjust like the JPoint or Shield RMS. However, this is a $1500 gun so it's probably not a fair comparison. Although, if you really count the cost of RDS, Milling, good co-witness sights, AND the gun, $$ invested can mount up fast.
I have a P-01 that I might try mounting a JPoint (Like I did on SP-01 above. All-in only $325 and it stays on 24/7 and auto adjusts. Just can't use it as a hammer. LOL

Again, this is only my limited personal observations, reading a lot, and listening to those in the know like s0nespark who has EDC an RDS a considerable time, and Raining Brass from Primary who has seen and tried 'em all. The 64 page Whitepaper by Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics is very thorough but I believe overemphasizes durability, but for LEO that might be most important. JMHO....YMMV

Just to tack on my $0.02... ;-)

Currently my "serious use" guns all have Trijicon RM07s, primarily for the ruggedness and reliability. For me that matters a lot because the dot makes such a huge difference with my eyes in terms of visual speed that I really (really) do not want to ever have to use the backup irons ;-)

My next optic-equipped gun will be more for fun and experimentation, though, so I am likely to go with a DPP on that gun, whatever it ends up being.

I have at least limited experience with most of the optics that have been mentioned, though, and have a good amount of time behind my own so here are my general takeaways.

Dot size matters. Personally I greatly prefer 6.25MOA over smaller sizes for the same reason I like irons with a hi-viz front: it is quicker to pick up at speed. A bigger dot also means that "dot wobble" is less distracting. There are valid use cases for smaller (and maybe even larger) dots, so make sure you are choosing the right dot for the way you intend to use it, or are least aware of what trade-offs you are making.

Reliability matters, but it isn't necessarily the most important thing. Depending on how you will use the gun and how tolerant you are if the optic goes down (which you should include in your training) you may be better served by a less bulletproof optic if it provides other features you value more.

Co-witness irons matters for self-defense, but maybe not anything else. On a gun you depend on to save lives you need a fallback to make good hits with if the optic goes down - not ballpark hits but effective hits. For most, that means some form of backup irons that cowitness but it could just mean a front sight that you can use with the optic housing. With other use cases you may be able to totally forgo irons and not lose a moment's thought over it.

... and the biggest ...

Taking the plunge now is preferable to waiting. If using an RDS on your pistol really clicks for you, whatever route you took to get started - which optic, which mounting method, which gun - really won't matter because this simply won't be your only optic-equipped gun before it is said and done. You can always "chase better" by choosing a different approach on your next gun if the concept works as well for you in practice as it has for others... and if it doesn't? Well, there is a good argument for starting with an affordable approach such as an optic-ready gun or dovetail mount paired with one of the more affordable optics. The key IMO is not to waste any more time waiting :) You really won't know if an RDS is for you until you spend some quality time behind one.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:44:10 PM by s0nspark, Reason: clarity of thought »
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