Milling for DPP - who should I send it to?

[Vinny]

As I said, I think you're just confused on how zeroing and co witness with a pistol dot works.

Just because you're adjusting the dot one way or the other, you STILL want to put the dot center of the glass. There's no circumstance that you should have a "zerod" dot that you're aiming with at the bottom of the glass. lol

Co witness sights have absolutely nothing to do with it. They're irrelevant to your dot zero. If you have a lower 1/3 co witness the dot will sit above the sights. You don't try to manipulate things so you're using the dot at the bottom of the glass so it co witnesses perfectly with the sights.

I agree with Raining Brass that you would use the RDS in the center of the window, not lower 1/3. However, your irons should be in the lower 1/3.

Hopefully, the following three images of my new Sig 229 LEGION RX will help clear up the sight picture. This gun is set up with both excellent iron sights that are pre-set by the factory and their proprietary Romeo1 RDS. It's a Sig Factory matched set-up.

First image is Irons only, RDS turned OFF.

Second image below is RDS ON and set-up so the dot will be P.O.I. This is how you shoot with RDS ON, dot centered in window, and POI will be where the dot is.

Third image below IS NOT HOW YOU SHOOT WITH RDS. It only proves that both the irons and RDS have same POI.  But, you shoot the RDS like image above with the dot centered and on your target. Remember, you use either RDS or IF it goes out the irons, NOT BOTH at same time. I hope this clears up the confusion.  -Vinny

[Wokpak]

Vinny,

First of all, thank you for the great photos and explanation.

From what i see you would have two different pistol presentations then. If you presented like in photo 2 and the dot is out, you'd have to readjust to line up your irons.

[Vinny]

Yes, that is correct. 

However, the chance of dot being out is very very small; but for a defensive gun IMO it is still important to have good irons as back up.  Much less important on a comp gun, and not at all on a target gun. The Sig X-Ray BUIS are top-notch. But as good as the Sig is, I still love my P-07's and 09. 

[s0nspark]

Vinny,

First of all, thank you for the great photos and explanation.

From what i see you would have two different pistol presentations then. If you presented like in photo 2 and the dot is out, you'd have to readjust to line up your irons.

No, not two presentations... just a small shift to irons at the end of your normal presentation if the dot is out.

That is the way lower 1/3 cowitness works. With absolute cowitness there is no shift required.

[Vinny]

Vinny,

First of all, thank you for the great photos and explanation.

From what i see you would have two different pistol presentations then. If you presented like in photo 2 and the dot is out, you'd have to readjust to line up your irons.

No, not two presentations... just a small shift to irons at the end of your normal presentation if the dot is out.

That is the way lower 1/3 cowitness works. With absolute cowitness there is no shift required.

Thanks for the correction s0nspark. You're absolutely right.

I guess I'm guilty of calling the 'lower 1/3 co-witness' simply: 'co-witness'; instead of calling them 'BUIS' Back-Up Iron Sights which is what they are.
 
RDS has forced me to correct my presentation from squinting at both target and irons to align; to simply focusing on the target through the reticle window with both eyes open and placing the dot on target. It's so much faster and more accurate especially with my old eyes.  Really, something I should have been doing with irons (focusing on target and placing front sight) but I developed habits from slow target shooting. RDS has helped me improve my defensive shooting, but I've got a ways to go. 

[SlvrDragon50]

Just shot my DPP for the first time. Need to take some time to really sight it in though. It was completely off and had to raise the POI significantly. I think it's pretty good now, but I wasn't shooting from rest so I have no clue how zeroed in it is. They're landing reasonably close to the dot though! Other thing I noticed is that a 6.5 MOA dot really is massive. I do like it and was able to hit a piece of steel at 50 yds.

I want to say I was calling shots pretty easily, but I figure that only applies if my dot is zeroed 

[Vinny]

Just shot my DPP for the first time. Need to take some time to really sight it in though. It was completely off and had to raise the POI significantly. I think it's pretty good now, but I wasn't shooting from rest so I have no clue how zeroed in it is. They're landing reasonably close to the dot though! Other thing I noticed is that a 6.5 MOA dot really is massive. I do like it and was able to hit a piece of steel at 50 yds.

I want to say I was calling shots pretty easily, but I figure that only applies if my dot is zeroed 

If you have the 7.5moa 'triangle', here's a suggestion:  Once the left-right is zeroed perfectly; you can either adjust the up-down so tip of triangle is your POA/POI for bull's eye shooting, or for closer defensive shooting adjust so center of triangle is your POA/POI.  I use one of those target/charts with 1" squares to zero. Because the DPP sits quite high above the barrel, if it's zeroed at say 10 yards and you're shooting at 20 yards, your POI will rise slightly due to parallax between c/l of barrel vs. rds. I usually zero mine at 10 yards. YMMV  -Vinny

[Nimdabew]

What do you mean illegal for carry optics??
 Doesn't matter what milling you want done ,have  primary machines do it . they did a fantastic job on my P09.

Carry optics is a USPSA division.

You need to have the optic attached to the slide and not the frame. Milling is a perfectly acceptable method.

https://uspsa.org/viewer/Appendix_D7.pdf

Optical/electronic sights REQUIRED; must be attached directly to slide between rear of slide and ejection port, and may not be mounted to the frame in any way

[SlvrDragon50]

Just shot my DPP for the first time. Need to take some time to really sight it in though. It was completely off and had to raise the POI significantly. I think it's pretty good now, but I wasn't shooting from rest so I have no clue how zeroed in it is. They're landing reasonably close to the dot though! Other thing I noticed is that a 6.5 MOA dot really is massive. I do like it and was able to hit a piece of steel at 50 yds.

I want to say I was calling shots pretty easily, but I figure that only applies if my dot is zeroed 

If you have the 7.5moa 'triangle', here's a suggestion:  Once the left-right is zeroed perfectly; you can either adjust the up-down so tip of triangle is your POA/POI for bull's eye shooting, or for closer defensive shooting adjust so center of triangle is your POA/POI.  I use one of those target/charts with 1" squares to zero. Because the DPP sits quite high above the barrel, if it's zeroed at say 10 yards and you're shooting at 20 yards, your POI will rise slightly due to parallax between c/l of barrel vs. rds. I usually zero mine at 10 yards. YMMV  -Vinny

Yea, I need to get a proper zero target. I was just shooting a target with a big rectangle in the middle I haven't decided what distance I want to zero at. I tried to zero at 20 yards, and it seemed reasonably okay, but I was jerking the trigger around.

[Vinny]

IMHO - Dry-firing with a red dot is one of the best training aids.
If you can hold the dot on a distant spot as you pull the trigger, you'll see your shooting improve. 

[Tyerone]

IMHO - Dry-firing with a red dot is one of the best training aids.
If you can hold the dot on a distant spot as you pull the trigger, you'll see your shooting improve. 

Totally agree!  Dry firing  my newly milled 85B I could easily call my (hammer drops) as to whether the dot stayed on target or not.  But for those 3 anomolies, you should have seen the one ragged hole I imagined for the other 17 shots!!!  That was for 2 handed hold.  Still have much work to do for one handed bullseye holds, although ringing the 8 inch gong 1 handed at 17 yards (actual shots) was pretty routine.  I'm only 51 real rounds into it.  My range intentions for today were thwarted.

[bpnkrtn]

This has been one of the most informative threads that I've read!  Many thanks t you all.

[benchmark]

https://cajungunworks.com

[I like pink]

Primary Machine isn't that much more expensive than the other places, and I know they have a 10% discount as well. Probably gonna go with them. just gotta figure out a color now!

They do?  Is there a secret handshake to get the code?  I'm planning on sending my slide for milling and grips for matched ceracoating as soon as my grips arrive!

[rpmgolfs]

I looking at having Primary Machine milling and adding the Venom sight to my CZ P-01 Omega. So do you have them mill in the optic in front of the rear dovetail or mill out the rear dovetail for the optic?