The P07/09 trigger - leaving a lot to be desired.

[s0nspark]

I'm interested in this thread and any opinions on my P-09 trigger which seems quite different than my metal-frame CZ's which seem to smooth out nicely after a couple thousand rounds/dry fires.

Before I went all polymer with my CZs, I owned 2 75BDs, and SP-01 Tactical and a PCR. I sent all 4 to CGW for the magic and, of the 4, the PCR ended up with the best trigger by far.

That is just to say the there is some variance in the metal framed guns too.

[Vinny]

Much appreciate the feedback given above.
I like the way the P-09 feels with Talon grip just added, it's very accurate to well beyond the limits of my eyesight, and so far 100% reliable without a hiccup. I'm hoping it can replace my last striker, the Glock 17 so my defensive manual of arms will all be decocker DA/SA.  I've got a lot more rounds through my P-07 and it's really quite good. I'll dig a bit deeper into the P-09 to see if I can determine the cause of the 'notch'; try to 'burnish' it out, or just quit screwing around and Cajunize. I want to know it's very good before milling for RDS and ditching the Glock. Thanks for suggestions.  -Vinny

[Vinny]

P.S.-Update:  Spent some time 'burnishing' the sear (aka GI Trigger Job) with a slight forward press on hammer as I pull trigger and hold hammer from dropping. Repeat. Repeat. Trigger seems to be getting better, less 'notch' and SA trigger averaging 2lb 15oz now and DA right at 9lbs with my Lyman.  Not perfect yet, but very acceptable. I'm gaining confidence this can be a great gun.

I may be jaded by my new Sig P229 Legion RX's trigger.  Superb right out of the box with that smooth camming to a crisp break that I like; with a very short reset. But of course it cost almost 3X the $$. My Sp-01 Tactical is almost as nice, so I know a CZ can measure up, perhaps the P-09 too with a little more effort and a few upgraded parts. 

Thanks again for all the suggestions in this thread.

[briang2ad]

At least I admitted my own brain cramp with the reversing pins!  LOL.

I now feel pretty fortunate about my two very good P07s.  And... per CGW/Schmeky, the roller bearing may be the biggest culprit. 

The positive:  The P series is VERY shootable, reliable, and accurate.  Even though the grip may not feel QUITE as good as a 75 with the right custom grips, it sits in the hand so well, it just plain shoots.

I WILL have to chide CZ-UB on QC.  It sounds to me like they have NOT transitioned proper QC into their P line and specifically the roller bearing - it sounds to me that IF they got this right,  75% or our troubles would blow away.  They should contract out to CGW until they learn how to do it right. 

I think they are behind the industry in this area.  SIG is able to push out a similarly priced pistol with an amazingly smooth and consistent trigger - the SP 2022.  Frankly, every PX4 I pick up is butter smooth also.  And these guns have a very clean SA too.  Not so with CZ.

The P design has flaws.  The 75 series has fewer issues especially when worked on because of its design.  The double trigger bar and captured sear parts (cage) aid in making those guns more consistent.  The interface of the double trigger bar and sear cage makes it all more consistent also.  Sure, bad QC happens even to the metal guns - I had a P01 that went back three times and I ultimately ditched it.  If I had known how to deal with the decocker, I would have likely worked it out, but in those days no one really did.  So, I think the 75 is easier to polish and get results overall. 

Think about it - without the sear cage things are kinda hanging in there - more of a problem when one or more tolerances are off.  So part of it is design and part QC. 

This all makes me want to get a Phantom instead of a P09.  Hmmmmm...  (My 'ultimate' nightmare is to order a P09 online [cuz they are unicorns anyway] and get one that has a permanently bad trigger).

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Why don't you just by a sig or something else with a trigger you like? I've lost count of the posts you've made complaining about the P-series trigger.
Incidentally I've handled all the other guns you continually mention that are supposed to be soo smooth and honestly I don't think they're all that great either. Recently handled a Sig Legion in 10mm and the trigger while crisp had to be 7lbs in SA and that's not too good for a gun with an msrp of the Legion line.

[M1A4ME]

I believe the Tactical Sports have a single legged trigger bar.  Mine does.  Yeah, it's SAO, but at 1.75 lb. trigger pull, no creep, etc. I don't think only having a single leg on the trigger bar is a problem.

I've only got 3 P-guns (1 P07 and 2 P09's).  The P07 is awesome (compared to Glock, XDM, Browning, Beretta, and M&P guns in my safe), the 9MM P09 is right there next to the P07 and the .40 S&W P07 lags behind them when a gap between it and the 9MM.

Sorry yours is showing issues.

[s0nspark]

This all makes me want to get a Phantom instead of a P09.  Hmmmmm...  (My 'ultimate' nightmare is to order a P09 online [cuz they are unicorns anyway] and get one that has a permanently bad trigger).

P-09s are only unicorns for a time - CZ production runs in cycles of mysterious length. There is always something that seems scarce at the moment...

... and if that is your ultimate nightmare, you and I definitely have different kinds of nightmares ;-)

As a relatively new trigger snob I have realized a few things.

1. Most people don't care and couldn't or wouldn't notice an average vs great trigger
2. A wonderful trigger is great to have but not necessary to shoot well.
 

[briang2ad]

My unicorn statement is about trying one out. Rarely do CZs appear in an LGS, and then only one or two models.  Gun Shows are another possibility. 

My first P07 was REALLY REALLY bad, and now its very nice, so I know there is hope for many a P series gun.  But, I've heard the CGW statement on bad P series guns more than once - the first time from the source! 

The CZ shoots well also because of the shorter trigger throw, not because of the refined trigger.

Yes, I am a trigger snob.

[M1A4ME]

And good barrel to slide lock up, too.  My 9MM P09 shoots better than any other semi-auto pistol I've ever shot.  My P07 comes in second place.

Even my Tactical Sport won't hang with the P09, but maybe I just haven't found "the load" for it.  I know my .40 S&W P07 shoots better groups than my .40 S&W P09, but that is with the same 135 grain hollow point load the P07 "likes" so much.  A different load might shoot better in the P09 and/or the Tactical Sport.

[K31Scout]

This is all very discouraging because the P-07 is on my short list for carry in the next few months.  So the trigger can get worse after a  break in?  I'm all for trigger kits and have done the $97 Apex DCAEK on an M&P of mine but the CGW kit is quite a bit more and no guaranty of success.  My heart says get one and hope for the best but my brain is saying keep looking. 

Does the older P-07 Duty have the same Omega trigger?

 

[s0nspark]

This is all very discouraging because the P-07 is on my short list for carry in the next few months.  So the trigger can get worse after a  break in?

Don't let this discourage you... those "1 in 10" odds aren't a scientific statement of fact. The last two P-07s I ordered in stock form were actually quite good out of the box... MUCH better than my first two.

If you really wanted to play it safe, order your P-07 already Cajunized direct from CGW - you will be sure to get a solid one then.

[miller_man]

This is all ringing very true in my most recent experience getting into P series CZ's. Got a p-09 first - all stock, GREAT trigger - very smooth D/A. Bought a used p-07 with cajun pro package (owner installed) - couldn't wait to try it out after the stock 09 was so great. When I got the 07 I was shocked at how horrible the D/A trigger was - seemed more than twice as heavy as the 09 and SOOO gritty. I figured that was why I got such a good deal on the 07, even with the parts - it was just a bad trigger. I thought for sure one or more of the parts had to be installed incorrectly or something - that's how bad it was. So did everything in the polish thread - put it all back together - still super heavy D/A, lot less gritty though. Called cajun, got the same 1 in 10 guns stuff. They did tell me about the rollers. I slowly put stock parts back in the gun and did a little more polishing and got the trigger MUCH MUCH better. Now, I've gotten it almost on par with the 09 - just still a little heavier, but I'm completely back to stock except the 18lb main spring and TRS. But the 09 trigger is so good, I may be selling the un-opened pro kit I bought for it, and may even do the same with the used kit as well.

After just under 1k rounds through my 1st P-09, and a little under 200 through the 07, I have another 09 on the way, will be very interested in seeing how the trigger on it is. To have SO MUCH difference between triggers is quite interesting and a lot lacking from CZ. I won't be easily swayed away from the platform though - I have barely over 400 in each pistol so far and have been shooting quite well and with a lot less effort than most pistols I have worked with, especially for my first real dive into DA/SA. If I can get/make the stock guns/parts on par with the 2 I have so far - they will be more than good enough for my trigger finger.

It does suck that it can be such a crap shoot from the factory though.

[M1A4ME]

Well, they ain't $800 handguns.  If I bought an $800 to $1200 pistol I'd expect it to be perfect.  If I buy a $400 to $500 pistol I expect it to be reliable and pretty accurate.  If it was "perfect", great.  If not, I still got more for my money that I would with many other handguns.  Am I what they call a "fanboy"??

They are reliable and accurate, mine have been so far.  Out of 14 only one has been back for warranty work (front tritium sight on the UG P01 died on me one weekend).   Took about 8 or 9 days to get it back from CZ USA.  I've replaced parts (more for fun than because I hated the trigger/action) in 5 of them.  Only 1 really needed parts and it was a very well used and abused Pre CZ 85.  One of the Compacts had a just down right nasty trigger, as compared to my other CZ's.

Good, and bad, in every product.  I've got a safe full of semi-auto handguns of various American made handguns, as well as a three or four foreign made models and I've bought nothing but CZ's now for probably 6 years, after that first P07.

[s0nspark]

If I buy a $400 to $500 pistol I expect it to be reliable and pretty accurate.  If it was "perfect", great.  If not, I still got more for my money that I would with many other handguns.

This is exactly how I see it.

I've picked up most of my P-07s for between $425 and $525 and immediately added $250 of CGW goodness to them as a starting point. I feel that gives you a solid, well-performing pistol well under what something similar would cost from other brands. Add to that the options of milling for an optic and adding a stealth comp - to a TDA pistol - and I really don't see anything that competes with a P-07/P-09 without costing much more and bringing other baggage to the table.

The stock guns are a great value. They are not generally well-tuned out of the box (although in my experience they've been getting better overall) but they tune up nicely in most cases with minimal effort and at a reasonable cost. What more can you ask of in a sub-$500 gun?

I get it, though - few people expect to buy a new product only to start replacing parts on it. I would say, though, that is exactly how you should see this. That is the real beauty of this platform.

[Vinny]

+1
Thank You M1A4ME, s0nspark, and others for putting this discussion into perspective.

I just paid $529 for my P-09 SR with threaded barrel, very good tall night sights, and (two) 21 round mags, adjustable backstraps, and the option to run as decocker, SAO or SA/DA with safety. It came with a test-firing pattern (5 rounds at 25 meters) proving the gun's accuracy and POI vs POA. I mean, how many handguns even come with test-firing anymore?  That's a lot of handgun for just over $500.

Add to that the P-09's reputation for reliability, durability, accuracy, and shootability.

OK, so I asked for some suggestions on this thread about how to improve my P-09 trigger; simply because I know how good a CZ trigger can be (own more than a handful). I've been able to improve my other CZ's with just shooting/dry-firing 1000+ and a little 'burnishing' or polishing. $ZERO out-of-pocket expense, just patience and DIY tuning. I believe my P-09 will be the same, and comparable to guns at 2 to 3 X the cost.

There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks on this Forum that are happy to share suggestions to improve your CZ's. However, I do hope that CZ newbies or potential CZ buyers don't misconstrue these discussions as complaints. You won't see any of MY CZ's for sale anytime soon! 

Just Say'in.